I just wonder what MacPherson carried or does carry if still alive?
Like wondering what doctor ones doctor goes to or what surgeon he would use if he was needing surgery.
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I just wonder what MacPherson carried or does carry if still alive?
Like wondering what doctor ones doctor goes to or what surgeon he would use if he was needing surgery.
Clearly, the lesson of the Mannlicher-Carcano wound profile has not sunk in.Originally Posted by 44MAG#1
Fackler never did a wound profile for a .25 ACP FMJ. But unless the .25 ACP is a "tumbler," it would probably look like this:
So, what you're saying is...
...that there's no difference between a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano and .25 ACP.
No. Of course, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that despite its much greater weight and its much higher velocity and its much greater energy, the stable FMJ Mannlicher-Carcano is likely to do about the same amount of soft tissue damage in its first 15" of penetration as a .25 ACP FMJ does in its 15" of penetration.
But I'm neither a doctor nor a wound ballistics expert. So, taken from me, you might not believe any of that. But Fackler was both a doctor and a wound ballistics expert and made essentially the same argument with respect to the Vietnam era steel core AK-47 round and a .32 ACP pistol round. As Fackler wrote in that wound profile: "A lot of US servicemen owe their lives to the minimal wounds caused by these bullets."
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell
I cant find anywhere I mention a 25 caliber handgun anywhereClearly, the lesson of the Mannlicher-Carcano wound profile has not sunk in.
Fackler never did a wound profile for a .25 ACP FMJ. But unless the .25 ACP is a "tumbler," it would probably look like this:
So, what you're saying is...
...that there's no difference between a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano and .25 ACP.
No. Of course, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that despite its much greater weight and its much higher velocity and its much greater energy, the stable FMJ Mannlicher-Carcano is likely to do about the same amount of soft tissue damage in its first 15" of penetration as a .25 ACP FMJ does in its 15" of penetration.
But I'm neither a doctor nor a wound ballistics expert. So, taken from me, you might not believe any of that. But Fackler was both a doctor and a wound ballistics expert and made essentially the same argument with respect to the Vietnam era steel core AK-47 round and a .32 ACP pistol round. As Fackler wrote in that wound profile: "A lot of US servicemen owe their lives to the minimal wounds caused by these bullets."
Last edited by 44MAG#1; 09-13-2022 at 09:47 AM.
I think there's a good chance it would be a compact 9mm with reliable 147 grain JHPs.
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell
But you never pass up an opportunity to tell me what I'm saying. Did you even watch the "So, what you're saying..." video? I think it illustrates your method of "discussion."
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell
That is a good little video. You did well.
Hydro-static…. Fluid at rest….. So we are led to believe that fluid at rest (motionless, still) can create “shock”.
Some magazine writers will say anything…. Lol
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt..... Mark Twain
I believe Elmer Keith hit that Mule Deer two hits out of four shots at 600 yards with a 6.5 inch Smith and Wesson 44 Magnum.
So what does that say about me?
I once believed in Santa Claus, then realized I’d been duped… Learning the truth isn’t always as enjoyable as the myths we hold dear.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt..... Mark Twain
First, to give credit where due, understand that VIRGEL is based heavily on the works of Duncan MacPherson (see Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma ) and Charles Schwartz (see Quantitative Ammunition Selection).
But to answer your question: Sure. I'm often comparing VIRGEL's results to published results from actual gel testing and I encourage you to do the same. Usually the comparisons are pretty close. VIRGEL can usually pick up the difference between real 10% ballistic gelatin and the Clear Ballistic gel (Lucky Gunner's data, for example) and VIRGEL can almost always spot a "tumbler" which doesn't come close to predicted penetration despite having no expansion. Only occasionally does VIRGEL really miss the mark with trusted data such as Fackler's .357 Magnum wound profile shown somewhere above.
But keep in mind that penetration is the only thing you can compare. You'll almost never find any real gel measurements for permanent cavity volume (which would correspond to VIRGEL's wound mass calculations). That's one of the virtues of using VIRGEL. Also keep in mind that none of this is an exact science. I think of VIRGEL as a "heuristic" tool -- something to give me a quick and dirty estimates when no exact measurement is possible. It helps me think about things. It's certainly not intended as a virtual replacement for real gel testing.
Last edited by pettypace; 09-13-2022 at 02:44 PM.
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell
Just like these guys with "THE TRUTH".
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/24/busin...tle/index.html
You seem to be off your meds today.
Tangential discussions are best left to trolls, and those easily trolled.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt..... Mark Twain
Thank you.
Good point. Adding +P velocity to a non-expanding bullet doesn't gain much. Adding enough +P velocity to get bullet expansion while maintaining adequate penetration can gain a lot.
Also a great website for 44-40 fans. Thanks!
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell
Who do we believe about the threshold on the expansion velocity range? The factories, the "experts" or do our own experimenting?
For example Hornady gives for the 45 Auto XTP a velocity range of 600 to 1650 fps range? How much will it expand at 600 and 1650 fps? Almost none at 600? Almost blow up at 1650 fps? Is 1125 optimum? Which renders a 1911 in 45 AUTO out of the question unless it is converted into the souped up versions?
What about the 9MM?
Where does all this lead to?
What about Speer and Sierras velocity parameters?
Last edited by 44MAG#1; 09-13-2022 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Due to uneducatedness
I think it depends on how badly you want to make sure you have accurate and precise knowledge of bullet behavior. If Hornady, a reputable bullet company, is advertising a defense bullet for 45 auto and they claim expansion down to 600fps, I would make the assumption that at least some degree of predictable expansion behavior is observable over that velocity range. If you want to know more than that, you're going to have to look at tests.
Personally, if I were loading HPs and relying on them to make my ammo effective (I'm not and I don't), I would try to err towards the middle of the stated velocity range for my loads, or at least the standard velocity for the cartridge I'm loading. In your example, it would be absolutely irresponsible and ridiculous for Hornady to make and sell a 0.452 diameter bullet advertised as "45 Auto XTP" which didn't properly function at 45ACP velocities. Is it possible that they're just selling terrible bullets? Well yeah... but would they bet the brand on getting away with it? Maybe I'm just not cynical enough, but I don't see that happening.
I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.
The factories won't show you anything they don't want you to see. There's a lot of good info at the Lucky Gunner site. Just keep in mind that penetration might be deeper in Clear Ballistic gel than in real 10% ballistic gelatin.
If you really want to find the lower threshold for expansion, you'll probably have to do your own testing. But real gelatin is expensive, time-consuming, and requires meticulous attention to detail -- all beyond me. But with a cooperative range officer, some half gallon milk cartons full of water, scraps from worn out jeans, a long box full of pillow stuffing, a vernier caliper, a chronograph, and VIRGEL, you can learn everything you need to know short of barrier penetration.
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell
That all makes perfect sense to me. I'll only add that in testing I've seen on the internet, XTPs often seem to fold back on themselves just the right amount to maximize "MacPherson Wound Mass" for the cartridge. Other bullets often seem to expand too much, giving less penetration and lower wound mass.
Last edited by pettypace; 09-14-2022 at 08:15 AM.
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell
The thing to do is if anyone does tests is never post them. I found that out by posting chronographing some data one time. Never again.
If one did expansion test the ones with a lot of degrees behind their name will pick it to death. Questioning things like Distance, type of media, how thick was the plastic jugs of water if water was used, were the jugs completely full or did they have a space at the top, how the median was prepared, outside temperature, humidity, brand of chrono if chronoed, did you have a fresh battery in it, was it an accurate chonograph, did you hold the gun tight, how hard did you pull the trigger, what phase was the moon the night before, did you measure the bullet after recovery accurately, etc, etc.
Ones results will be destroyed by some.
But it is alright. it is done in the name of statistics and that is good. Without statistics where would we be?
I understand.
Last edited by 44MAG#1; 09-13-2022 at 04:19 PM.
Found this diagram last night in a 1987 report by Fackler called Missile-Caused Wounds..
More evidence that velocity, per se, is not what causes the major damage.
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell
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