Any Reason for +P Ammo

[pettypace]

Just took your advice and tried the web app, neat toy.

I'm a bit concerned though, there's something funky going on with the equations or my recollection of the performance of some of the "control" loads listed in the bottom left is worse than I imagined. For instance, if I set the parameters to duplicate a 147gr heavy subsonic 9mm round, I can't get the output anywhere near the 40gr they list. The largest self-defense value I can get is with a wadcutter instead of MSH, 35/100 diameter, 150gr, 1050fps, which gives me 25gr. What have I done wrong?

VIRGEL has no way to guess the expanded diameter. You have to enter it yourself. It looks like I used 0.50" to peg penetration at 18" and maximize the "Defense Wound Mass." That might be about right for an XTP. But most others expand too much (in my humble and unbiased opinion) limiting penetration and wound mass. I just checked the Wolberg data (from the first issue of the Wound Ballistics Review) and it looks like early 1990's vintage Winchester 147 grainers averaged closer to 0.54" in actual autopsy measurement. That works out to a wound mass of 38 instead of 40 grams. But close enough for government work.

Thanks for trying VIRGEL. And I like the way you described it -- a neat toy. VIRGEL certainly isn't gospel. But it is a neat toy once you get the hang of running it.

[44MAG#1]

VIRGEL has no way to guess the expanded diameter. You have to enter it yourself. It looks like I used 0.50" to peg penetration at 18" and maximize the "Defense Wound Mass." That might be about right for an XTP. But most others expand too much (in my humble and unbiased opinion) limiting penetration and wound mass. I just checked the Wolberg data (from the first issue of the Wound Ballistics Review) and it looks like early 1990's vintage Winchester 147 grainers averaged closer to 0.54" in actual autopsy measurement. That works out to a wound mass of 38 instead of 40 grams. But close enough for government work.

Thanks for trying VIRGEL. And I like the way you described it -- a neat toy. VIRGEL certainly isn't gospel. But it is a neat toy once you get the hang of running it.

The problem with guessing it is guessing. We all know that. That is the problem. Even with wadcutter setting the velocity levels makes virtually no difference.

[44MAG#1]

Even if .50 is plugged in mushroom a velocity of 971 to 1599 gives the same DWM

[44MAG#1]

Even if .43 is plugged in for a wadcutter 44 at 250 grains a velocity of 533 fps to 1599 gives the same DWM.

[Soundguy]

Not my term or judgement. It was the term used by the Brits to describe it actual battlefield performance. The .450 Adams was a British black powder centrefire revolver cartridge initially used in converted Beaumont–Adams revolvers using 13 grains of BP under a 225 grain LRN bullet.

Wow...yeah..i can see why it was called anemic. I have seen what 13gr of pyrodex under a. 140? Gr .454 lead ball does out of a repro revolver... And it ain't much.. And that's got a heavier bullet... Though shorter barrel.

I can see where things like a metal cigarette case or a 50 cent piece could save your day with those ballistics + soft lead.

[pettypace]

Even if .50 is plugged in mushroom a velocity of 971 to 1599 gives the same DWM

That's been explained before. It's not hard. MacPherson felt that penetration beyond 15" played little or no useful role in self-defense. So, in calculating what I call "Self-Defense Wound Mass" (his term was WTI m_w) he ignored any penetration beyond 15". If that doesn't make sense to you, then why not just ignore the "Self-Defense Wound Mass" and use the "Big Game Wound Mass" instead?

BTW: It seems that most manufacturers of premium JHP ammo more or less agree with MacPherson. Otherwise, they'd make ammunition that penetrated deeper than 15". That's simple enough to do. Just limit expansion.

[44MAG#1]

That's been explained before. It's not hard. MacPherson felt that penetration beyond 15" played little or no useful role in self-defense. So, in calculating what I call "Self-Defense Wound Mass" (his term was WTI m_w) he ignored any penetration beyond 15". If that doesn't make sense to you, then why not just ignore the "Self-Defense Wound Mass" and use the "Big Game Wound Mass" instead?

BTW: It seems that most manufacturers of premium JHP ammo more or less agree with MacPherson. Otherwise, they'd make ammunition that penetrated deeper than 15". That's simple enough to do. Just limit expansion.

It looks like that even if in 15 inches the DWM would be more than VIRGEL says. Hitting something faster and harder should shove the tissue around therefore create a nastier wound. So going back to my statement with VIRGEL most velocity increases are for naught.
So all of us higher velocity guys are just pounding sand down a rat hole
Makes me wonder why we have the much higher velocity cartridges.

[pettypace]

Wow...yeah..i can see why it was called anemic. I have seen what 13gr of pyrodex under a. 140? Gr .454 lead ball does out of a repro revolver... And it ain't much.. And that's got a heavier bullet... Though shorter barrel.

I can see where things like a metal cigarette case or a 50 cent piece could save your day with those ballistics + soft lead.

A .45 caliber 225 grain round nose bullet at 590 f/s should be good for more than 18" of penetration. I'd want more than a half dollar to hide behind.

[pettypace]

It looks like that even if in 15 inches the DWM would be more than VIRGEL says. Hitting something faster and harder should shove the tissue around therefore create a nastier wound. So going back to my statement with VIRGEL most velocity increases are for naught.
So all of us higher velocity guys are just pounding sand down a rat hole
Makes me wonder why we have the much higher velocity cartridges.

OK... One last try. Here's Fackler's wound profile for a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano 160 grain FMJ at just over 2000 f/s.



Take a good look at the massive permanent cavity and associated tissue destruction in the first 50 cm of wound channel where the velocity is highest. That's right! There isn't any. Despite it's high velocity, the bullet does very little damage.

Before jumping immediately to the next foolish thing to write, take a minute or two and read what Fackler had to say about this wound profile. In particular, read "Unless these bullets hit substantial bone, which upsets their stability and might cause them to deform or break, they typically cause small punctate entrance and exit wounds with minimal tissue disruption between the two."

I understand you think intuitively that "Hitting something faster and harder should shove the tissue around therefore create a nastier wound." But that isn't necessarily so. If the bullet hits nothing but tissue, the damage can be minimal despite the high velocity.

[44MAG#1]

OK... One last try. Here's Fackler's wound profile for a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano 160 grain FMJ at just over 2000 f/s.



Take a good look at the massive permanent cavity and associated tissue destruction in the first 50 cm of wound cavity where the velocity is highest. That's right! There isn't any. Despite it's high velocity, the bullet does very little damage.

Before jumping immediately to the next foolish thing to write, take a minute or two and read what Fackler had to say about this wound profile. In particular, read "Unless these bullets hit substantial bone, which upsets their stability and might cause them to deform or break, they typically cause small punctate entrance and exit wounds with minimal tissue disruption between the two."

I understand you think intuitively that "Hitting something faster and harder should shove the tissue around therefore create a nastier wound." But that isn't necessarily so. If the bullet hits nothing but tissue, the damage can be minimal despite the high velocity.

So more velocity's is generally useless.
So a lot of us have been fooling ourselves by even going over the bear minimum just a long as the gun functions?
We could maybe even pout a much weaker recoil spring in and go lower and till be okay?

[44MAG#1]

So in my 45 Auto with FMJRN 230 grain bullets 403 fps would be okay if the gun could be made to function since even up to over 1500 it is all the same?

[TurnipEaterDown]

So, why not try it before opining? It's free and easy. There's an Android version on the Google Play Store and I'm working on a web-based version here.



How about knowing something about the underlying assumptions and constraints before sniffing out simplicity?



One of VIRGEL's "underlying assumptions" (clearly stated in the app) is that the media is 10% ballistic gelatin. And the "constraints" imposed by the app limit the velocity between 400 f/s and 1600 f/s. So, any talk of the violent expansion of FMJ bullets seems silly.

I still say that if a person is going to use a tool to draw a conclusion, they ought to know how the tool works, and what its limitations are.

The statement about FMJs and varmit bullets was made to make somewhat of a limit comparison. If you did not understand that it was intended to illustrate that the impact characteristics of a bullet change with impact speed, I hope that the further explanation suffices to bring to light the limitations of the programming that you suggest is useful between 400 & 1600 fps. I would be willing to wager with anyone that there are HP bullets commercially available right now that will not expand at 400 fps, will expand as designed to create useful wound cavities at some small range of impact speeds less than 1600 and yet greater than 400 fps, and will fragment within a short distance of the impact point and fail to penetrate and thus fail to create a reliably lethal wound at 1600fps.
By what I read of the discussion about this Virgel tool, it doesn't consider the operating parameters (one being impact velocity) to the extent necessary to fully address some points brought up in the thread.
Hence: Simplistic, or insufficient for some points in the discussion. I don't see that it different than that, or that I need to use it.
Does that mean it is useless? Never said that, though I think you may think I implied that.

[pettypace]

So more velocity's is generally useless.
So a lot of us have been fooling ourselves by even going over the bear minimum just a long as the gun functions?
We could maybe even pout a much weaker recoil spring in and go lower and till be okay?

It's a curious game you play. You make up nonsense and attribute it to me. Cute.

[44MAG#1]

It's a curious game you play. You make up nonsense and attribute it to me. Cute.

No, I am going by what VIRGEL says
Even with mushrooming bullets high velocities are not need. Isn't that what VIRGEL says?

[pettypace]

So in my 45 Auto with FMJRN 230 grain bullets 403 fps would be okay if the gun could be made to function since even up to over 1500 it is all the same?

To maximize "Defense Wound Mass" in a .45 auto I'd look at a 230 grain XTP about as fast as I thought prudent. VIRGEL tells me that might be good for close to 60 grams.

BTW: Whatever made you think hardball at 400 f/s would be a good idea? That would be less than 30 grams.

[charlie b]

Why do you want more vel? Bullet expansion and depth of penetration. The bigger the bullet dia the more damage.

What that cute toy software is showing is the size of the human body. If your bullet exits the body (more than ~15" penetration), any bullet effects after that don't matter.

It also points out that when you make assumptions about bullet parameters (like bullet expansion), then your results are only as good as those assumptions.

This guy did a lot of testing to show differences in bullet performance, including comparing .38spl, +P and 2" vs 4" barrels. You can view the temporary and permanent wound cavities as well in the videos.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

[44MAG#1]

To maximize "Defense Wound Mass" in a .45 auto I'd look at a 230 grain XTP about as fast as I thought prudent. VIRGEL tells me that might be good for close to 60 grams.

BTW: Whatever made you think hardball at 400 f/s would be a good idea? That would be less than 30 grams.

It was at 500 fps instead of 400 but 500 to way over 1500 the DWM IS THE SAME. Even at 400 it is very close to the 500 fps mark.

[HumptyDumpty]

So more velocity's is generally useless.
So a lot of us have been fooling ourselves by even going over the bear minimum just a long as the gun functions?
We could maybe even pout a much weaker recoil spring in and go lower and till be okay?

I don't think that's completely true. We know that hydrostatic shock exists at high velocities (though typically beyond what pistols can accomplish), do the calculators you gentlemen are using account for that? Additionally, with enough speed, the tissues elastic properties are overpowered, and temporary cavities become permanent cavities. That's why the 5.56 works well at close range, but pokes small holes at longer distances.

[44MAG#1]

There is a problem with this. We know that hydrostatic shock exists at high velocities (though typically beyond what pistols can accomplish), do the calculators you gentlemen are using account for that?

I don't know what it includes or doesn't include. I just know velocity is not very important to it as long as you get minimal velocity. Who would have thought that. I have been doing it all wrong for most of my life. To bad at this age I have found that out.

[pmer]

Pettypace, have you compared your calculations to a actual round shot into gel?