9mm learning and constructive criticism

[Castaway]

fayettefatts, tin does some, but no appreciable hardening. It’s primarily used to allow the lead to flow into the recesses of the mould. Range scrap tends to flow well enough to use as is.

[VariableRecall]

I've had zero lead shaving with an old RCBS Sizer and seater, paired with a Lee Expander/Lee Auto Drum and a Lee Factory Crimp die as the 4th die on my Lee Turret Press. I've put together very consistent ammo in this fashion.
Quick recap of the dies in order:
1: RCBS Sizer
2: Lee Expander/Auto Drum
3: RCBS Seater
4: Lee Factory Crimp Die

Depending on the brass, the amount of force needed to run a completed round through the Lee FCD varies.

Also, my projectiles are sized to .356, and I have yet to have any lead shaving issues at that diameter. Sure, it's a little on the narrow side, but I've never had a single feeding issue at that diameter and all the case mouths are flawless.

[TurnipEaterDown]

One thing not mentioned in this thread to check in diagnosing instability (the noted yaw, and also 'ehh' accuracy) is to check bullet concentricity.

I find it difficult to seat short bearing length bullets in an inadequate flare (the noted shaving) and end up w/ good run out. Long bearing length bullets are generally a different matter, but even there if the neck is under size and the bullet is started poorly, then the bullet can end up w/ poor runout.

Recently I started loading for a 380 Auto w/ cast bullets. My experience before (30 years) was w/ large diameter revolver (44 and up to 50) or rifle (30 cal up to 416) and I never needed a special expanding tool like the M die. Tried doing without on the 380, and had an utter fail.
The bullets on the first 10 were very hard to start the seating properly due to very short bearing length (using a LEE 356-95-RF) and inadequate neck ID, and though I spent a lot of time trying to get those right at least 5 were seated visibly cocked. This was fixed w/ using an M die which I ordered after spending probably 40 minutes w/ those 10.

I shouldn't have to say, but if the cartridge chambers w/ the bullets seated cocked to bore, they will come out the muzzle that way too.

[whisler]

After fighting the common 9mm/cast boolit problems, (short throat in barrel, cases squeezing down the boolit diameter, too soft alloy) I finally sent the barrel to Dougguy to be throated, purchased a Lee 38 S&W powder-thru expander plug for my Lee dies, and went to 13 Bhn alloy. Problems solved.

[higgins]

My first 9mm cast loads were with some .356 dia 124 gr. truncated flat nose bullets someone gave me. They were just awful in my .358 groove 9mm. Berry's 147 gr. plated bullets were equally awful. Then I tried the Lee 358-125-RF, which drops at .359 from my mold. I have shot them unsized coated with LLA and I have also coated with a light coat of LLA, sized .359, and given a second light coat. Results have been good in the upper 900s fps in my gun. Alloy is straight COWW or salvaged cast bullet range scrap metal which would most likely be "hard cast" bullets.

To load these larger diameter bullets I expand and flare the cases with a .38 spl. M-die and seat the bullets with a .38 spl. seating die so that bullets are not squeezed down during the seating process. Crimping is a taper crimp die with a light crimp. I have found that Blazer and Federal 9mm cases may be thinner than most so are better with the oversize bullets. Before you load any quantity of ammo make sure whatever bullet and crimping method you use will easily chamber in your barrel. Good luck

[Bigslug]

JCSC,

Follow the link to the stickied thread in Dusty Bannister's #4 reply to your post. A lot of hard-won knowledge there. The formulae I arrived at for success starts on page 4 or 5.

[Soundguy]

fayettefatts, tin does some, but no appreciable hardening. It’s primarily used to allow the lead to flow into the recesses of the mould. Range scrap tends to flow well enough to use as is.

Well.. Most reputable sources..uh..completely disagree with you.
Lead has a 5 bhn.
20:1 has a 10 bhn.
" no appreciable hardening " really.. You mean like doubling the hardness?
Most range scrap I test is around 10 bhn.

To the OP.. Make sure you do your own research in the 2 great sources that were listed earlier.

Speaking of lead and The Captain... My last 2 casting sessions were with captain's lead ingots.

I have the bullets pan lubing and some aloxing right now. 10 bhn is fine for plenty of handgun rounds.

[JCSC]

JCSC,

Follow the link to the stickied thread in Dusty Bannister'
s #4 reply to your post. I lot of hard-won knowledge there. The formulae I arrived at for success starts on page 4 or 5.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the comments and have some follow up articles to read.


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[fredj338]

For 9mm I have run 0.356 up to 0.358 in a wide array of pistols. I have settled on 0.357 for everything. They shoot better than I can on most days. I PC & then size 0.357". Yes you want more flare. I like the "M" die style of expander.

[fredj338]

Well.. Most reputable sources..uh..completely disagree with you.
Lead has a 5 bhn.
20:1 has a 10 bhn.
" no appreciable hardening " really.. You mean like doubling the hardness?
Most range scrap I test is around 10 bhn.

To the OP.. Make sure you do your own research in the 2 great sources that were listed earlier.

Speaking of lead and The Captain... My last 2 casting sessions were with captain's lead ingots.

I have the bullets pan lubing and some aloxing right now. 10 bhn is fine for plenty of handgun rounds.

While true for pure lead, adding more tin doesnt give appreciably harder alloy with say range scrap, if that is the goal. You want antimony in the mix & then water drop somewhere in the process. I water drop my PC bullets out of the oven, get ranges scrap running about 12-13bhn.

[Castaway]

Soundguy, if you go 16:1, it’s only BH of 11. If starting from range scrap, that’s no appreciable hardness. Tin’s too valuable to waste on 9mm. Wheel weights are much cheaper and will harden if needed. Save the tin for alloying big heavy bullets propelled by black powder

[Soundguy]

If you go from pure lead it hardens. Plenty
Y. I took terms with your wording that tin doesn't appreciably harden. It does..but tapers off fast past 5-6% concentration... But a jump from 5-10 is dramatic and very statistically significant. Also, as Applegate and Fryxel point out..range scrap can and IS everything and anything. The makeup of range scrap is directly dependent upon what the clients there are shooting for instance there used to be an outdoor range about 35 miles from my house that is now closed unfortunately and I have to go to one that's about 45 miles away the lead scrap that I used to buy from the closed range tested out almost exactly as 5 to 6 bhn and that's because it was predominantly a black powder range and everyone was shooting pure lead , now an indoor range one city up from me that used to sell lead there lead tested around 10 Bhn, and upon having the lead sent for testing it was pretty much just antimonial-lead , no tin hardly at all and while it was hard-lead , adding tin to it would definitely still Harden it almost to the point where you could make Lyman number two alloy out of it so just saying that tin doesn't Harden lead really doesn't help anybody unless you know the exact alloy they're working with because tin added to lead even if it's hard lead can still Harden it because that hard lead could just be lead and antimony and arsenic.

[Castaway]

Yes

[JCSC]

While true for pure lead, adding more tin doesnt give appreciably harder alloy with say range scrap, if that is the goal. You want antimony in the mix & then water drop somewhere in the process. I water drop my PC bullets out of the oven, get ranges scrap running about 12-13bhn.

I’m still messing around with all this, but when I added tin, I did notice a significant different in maybe (surface tension?) of the lead. It poured differently and smoother than my previous batch.

There was no science to my trying this. I had a 5# batch of lead melted and added a couple feet of tin solder I had. It seemed more workable.

Also could have been mold temp or any million factors I know nothing about.


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[David2011]

Others will chime in, but I wouldn’t add tin to range scrap. A bell just large enough to hold a bullet easily, but not overly large Will help in shaving bullets while seating. If they chamber without sizing, try that and see how they work. You didn’t say how fast you were pushing them or the powder and charge.

fayettefatts, tin does some, but no appreciable hardening. It’s primarily used to allow the lead to flow into the recesses of the mould. Range scrap tends to flow well enough to use as is.

Soundguy, if you go 16:1, it’s only BH of 11. If starting from range scrap, that’s no appreciable hardness. Tin’s too valuable to waste on 9mm. Wheel weights are much cheaper and will harden if needed. Save the tin for alloying big heavy bullets propelled by black powder

These are awfully broad comments and assumptions. A better answer would be to ask the composition of the range scrap. I shot at one range where metallic silhouette was the primary game and there was very little in the way of scrap cast bullets. That scrap was mostly presumably pure lead cores. At ranges where there is a lot of action pistol shooting there is often a large amount of cast bullet scrap which would have a good start on the tin and antimony. You also seem to assume that the OP was adding lead for hardness but he said that it was for the pouring characteristics. Since we don’t know the composition of his scrap I’ll give him the benefit of seeing what he’s doing and determining what he needs. Additionally, 9mm is a faster and higher pressure load than many so I fail to see how it is a waste of tin to make good quality boolits.

JCSC, you could make sure you’re not adding excessive tin by reducing the amount until you get poor fill out but do what you’re happy with. Some people would say that my standard mix is a waste of Monotype but I’ve been adding 1/2 pound of it to 20 pounds of clip on wheel weights for a long time and it gives me good boolits. I’ll deviate from that if I have a reason for the deviation but it’s my go-to for my competition boolits in .40 and .45 calibers. The advice to make sure the boolits are filling the bores adequately is spot on.

One other thing. Cast, powder coat and size in fairly short order. If you let boolits sit too long after casting they can age harden, depending on the alloy, and be a whole lot less fun to size.

[Half Dog]

You have many great suggestions. Here’s what I’ve found:
Size to 0.358”
Keep adjusting the flare until the bullet sets in the case without shaving the lead. Measure the diameter of the flare and keep the measurement for later reference.
Seat the bullet then crimp. FCD will resize the bullet if it’s used the way it’s intended.
Measure the case diameter and do a plink test. I wasn’t able to get my round to chamber reliably. I sent the barrel to DougGuy and now it runs smooth.
I tried Titegroup powder and did not get good results.

I hope this helps.

[Soundguy]

Titegroup is my go to powder for virtually all handguns. Yes..you should ladder test it to find best accuracy..many don't take the time to do that. It's an economical powder with lots of case space.. It is not position sensitive..but you can easily double or triple charge a case if you do not pay attention.

If you don't have your barrel out to chamber test, get a chamber test block.. Easy to plunk test multiple calibers/chamberings.
As for range scrap... As has been pointed out..it can be anything... Testing is cheap..used to just cost a pound of lead and a few bucks and postage. Worth it if you are setting on a large quantity.. Much of it could be jacketed bullet core and have virtually no tin..

[Cast10]

Lee 356-120-TC and WSF for all my Glock 9’s.

All slugged to .356. My melt yields .358. After PC and sizing, .357-.3575.

I use SOWW + Hardball to approx. 11.3 BHN. 1% SN, 2.57% SB, 96.4% PB, No Leading in 9mm or 10mm.

Standard RCBS carbide dies with just enough flare to sit the bullet on top. Coal 1.080 and she goes Kerplunk.

[Hickok]

This is my experience with the 9mm and cast boolits. (found out from the good folks on this sight).

For cast, get the Lee Universal expander, then go to NOE and order expander plugs; .359 x.355 (for .356" bullets) and .360 x .356" (for .357-.358" boolits).

Trust me on this, it makes loading 9mm cast and pc'ed boolits so much better.

I shoot Lee 356-120-TC, use 50/50 COWW/ Lead with Smokes PC, chrony'ed at 1140fps. Pretty soft boolit, but with PC, I have absolutely no leading....barrel wipes out clean with a patch, and very accurate.

Glock 19x, Sig M17, and CZ 75b and Shadow 2, all these pistols eat this load. I can tell no difference in accuracy in sizing .356" or .357" in my listed pistols.

I did own a Beretta 92 that liked .358" cast, but I sold it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Please give me your thoughts.

I am shooting range scrap. I’ve added some tin for better pour...

I had ehhh accuracy, no leading and about 15% bullets that wanted to yaw and tumble.

Here is my two cents.

Loading 9mm with your own cast boolits is a bit more advanced than 38spl or 45acp, because 9mm is a high pressure round and as you found out, 9mm guns have chambers that vary, more so than other calibers...you can research that if you want to know why.
I would suggest you start with a low pressure caliber, like I mentioned, the 38 spl or the 45acp.

Since you are as far along in your loading 9mm project, you will not likely put it on the back shelf, so here is a couple helpful hints.

Your alloy is too soft to get good accuracy. You want a BHN of around 15 for loads in that 25Kpsi to 35Kpsi range. Now, if you are just shooting steel plates at 7 yds, the soft alloy will be fine, but if you want better than " ehhh accuracy" and eliminate the "yaw and tumble" you need a harder alloy.

This batch of rounds is now basically crap and I am pulling them. Partly due to now over crimping them and concerns with losing proper headspace from excessive headspace.

In semi-auto pistols, 9mm headspaces off the case mouth. While some people crimp 9mm (which is fine for 9mm revolvers), I do NOT crimp 9mm for semi-auto-pistols. If you cease crimping your 9mm ammo, you will likely solve more than one of your problems.

Here is a real simplified explanation, if you don't understand what I said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtgcgcDb4q4