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Thread: Replica Paradox Loading Tools

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Replica Paradox Loading Tools

    Does anybody know of someone making replica loading tools for a Paradox gun? I would like to finish off the case I keep it in with the proper tool set but cannot find any. I contacted H&H and they said they will resume making them but had no time line for when that might be. Plus I would expect the price to be out of range. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Squid Boy

  2. #2
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    Do you have a picture of what you are looking for? Is your gun an H&H gun? Pics of that too? and the case? There is a possibility that I could make this tool set. If I had good pics and some Basic Measurements.

    Never mind,,, I just googled the tools set and saw pics and it was way out of my league. If you want a proper set of tools to feed that gun you will either need to find a used set or Pay H&H's price which will probably not be cheap.

    The problem with trying to duplicate this set is the Bullet Mould. I don't know anyone who can make an 8 bore bullet mould? And we'd need a drawing with dimensions to even try. The other problem is duplicating H&H's tools. They might get pissed.

    Making similar tools that would do the job is another story. Think 8 bore Lee Classic Loader. That could be done. But,,, It wouldn't be proper to the gun, and that kind of Matters.

    Randy

    Now if that gun is 12 bore we can do that. I have slugs that will work as does many others here. Plenty to choose from,,, and a 12 ga. Lee Classic Loader would load them all. Not "Proper" but certainly usable.

    Randy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2280.jpg   100464870.JPG   100464872.JPG   100464871.JPG  
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 09-10-2022 at 04:32 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I don't know of anyone making replica tools for Paradox guns but they are failry simple from what I have seen. There are a number of pictures of Paradox guns with their associated tools on the internet.

    Ross Seyfried wrote a couple of articles about Paradox guns and his efforts to get the published accuracy... which he did in the end. IIRC it was both barrels printing into a 5" group at 100 yards. I have a copy of that article.

    The bullet mould shouldn't be an issue for 12 bore or under but may be for 10 bore or larger. CBE in Australia makes 12 bore Paradox bullet moulds. Accurate Molds can come close to the original Paradox bullet design. I have a copy of the original Kynoch bullet drawing in both solid and hollow point. It has been posted on the internet on several sites. I got my copy from the late James Gate of Dixie Slugs.

    The bullet "regulator" is a sizer to provide a slip fit in the smoothbore portion of the barrel and the "fixer: is a tool to iron the hull into the large groove of the Paradox bullet. There should be picures of both that an good machinist could use as a basis to make functional copies if not replicas.copies.

    Here is a pic of a complete set:

    https://dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net...D086B5CDE4DAD0

    And here is the Paradox bullet:

    https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/busin...ba03b26f25.jpg

    I don't see any pics of individual tools, just boxed sets. The regulator is a sizer and the fixer is a simple tool to iron that hull into the groove of the bullet so shouldn't be hard to figure out and machine. I was thinking of making one from round bar in scissor form to suit the diameter and radius of the groove+hull wall. I like the idea of holding bullets into hulls that way better than fold or roll crimp.

    No, I don't have a Paradox gun but do fantasize about then often! I may have a chance to shoot a Gibbs Paradox gun next month. Not an H&H but it is unlikely I will ever get to to fondle an H&H Paradox gun much less shoot one!

    Do you have pics of your Paradox gun so I can drool a little?

    Longbow

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Look what I just ran into!

    https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...unmaker/380531

    You might try contacting Mike Rowe. The article is two years old so relatively recent.

    Longbow

  5. #5
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    OK Kent: There is two sets of tools in that pic. 2 Different bores? https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...unmaker/380531

    What are the tools with the U shaped standoffs and Screw with Tee Handle?

    Also the Nutcracker lookin' pliers that I think are the crimping tools?

    The two Wooden Handled tools appear to be the HP pins for the boolit molds?

    Is that Mike Rowe the Dirty Jobs guy? Wouldn't that be cool?

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 09-11-2022 at 06:48 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Randy... you ask too many questions!

    Not sure what all the tools are but I suspect the U shaped tools are likely for seating wads.

    I think you are right on the wooden handled pointy tools being HP pins.

    The brass "nutcracker" is the "fixer" for ironing the hull into the large groove of the Paradox bullet.

    Then there is the boolit mould which is pretty obvious.

    There should be a regulator (sizer) there too.

    I think this Mike Rowe is a different Mike Rowe but who knows? Well, I'm sure somebody knows but that somebody isn't me.

    While I don't have a Paradox gun, as you know I have an interest. I am glad to see that Mike Rowe is recreating the old style tools.

    I have been thinking I might buy a CBE Paradox slug mould then if I ever get a rifled barrel I could use it. I might even be tempted to try one as an attached wad slug. I do like the idea of the fixer ironing the hull into the groove. I just might try making a fixer then a grooved lead slug to see how well that works with plastic hulls.

    Longbow

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    The two tools are sizers.
    Screw the "plunger" to the back and place a bullet with the skirt facing down and tighten the "top punch /plunger".
    Continue until the sized bullet drops out the bottom.


  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Good to know and makes more sense than my guess! For some reason I had it in my mind that the "regulator" Ross Seyfried referred to was split like a mould. Wrong!

    Anyway, good to see someone still cares about these things and is reproducing the old style tools.

    Longbow

  9. #9
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    So what is the Nutcracker lookin' one next to it?

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  10. #10
    Boolit Bub
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    Thanks everyone for digging all this stuff up. I tried Mike Rowe in Arkansas and another guy John Millar in Canada but no luck on either.

    My gun is a Joe Manton 12 bore and I have made all the tools needed for reloading already. You really only need a specialized roll crimper that has enough clearance to clear the nose of the Fosby slug and use a short Mec setup for the other chores. I did buy a CBE mold with the hollow point and solid inserts. That is a great mold by the way and casts a very nice slug. The original tools would just set it off even though they may not actually get used.

    I need to reduce the size of my photos before posting them but I will get a few up soon. Thanks again to everyone, Squid Boy

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Randy... the "nutcracker" is the "fixer". I forms the hull into the large groove of the Paradox boolit.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Longbow
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails main-qimg-ee131ce277fc4d5856bc790abd8bc247-lq.jpg  

  12. #12
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    That is a more serious Crimp than I thought it would be. I figured they'd just roll the top edge of the shell casing into the grease groove like a regular Roll Crimp on a Strait Wall cartridge like a .44 or .45-70.

    I don't see that boolit getting shifted forward from recoil, and maybe since there is a lot of recoil that was the idea from the get go?

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Always wanted one. However, I've only seen a couple and the prices were out of my league.

    https://www.thefield.co.uk/reviews/g...olland-paradox

    Sir Samuel Baker – legendary hunter, big character and contemporary of Fosbery – noted of the gun: “The Paradox, invented by Colonel Fosbery and manufactured by Messrs Holland and Holland of Bond Street is a most useful weapon, as it combines the shotgun with a rifle that is wonderfully accurate within a range of 100 yards… Although the powder charge is not sufficient to produce a high express velocity, the penetration and shock are most formidable, as the bullet is of hardened metal, and it retains its figure even after striking a tough hide and bones.”

    The Paradox saw most service in the jungles of Imperial India, but in World War One Paradox guns found a new purpose as potential Zeppelin busters. A dozen were bought by the newly formed Royal Naval Air Service, and H&H developed the Holland Buckingham .707in Incendiary shell to ignite the enemy airships’ hydrogen. Definitely a rippin’ yarn to be written there.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Bub
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    Ok, I hope this picture looks OK. It is very had to get a nice picture of a long gun. It is a box lock Manton with Fosbey chokes and must have been made after the patent ran out. I am guessing at that but they are exactly like the H&H. The barrels are 28 inches and have two flip up leaves for 100 & 200 yards. The chambers are 2-1/2" and it weighs 7 pounds four ounces.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The photo does not do it justice as it is in very fine condition. As close as I can date it is between 1904 and 1925 by the proof marks on the gun. It also shoots shot very well and patterns at better than improved cylinder but not quite modified. I have used it for sporting clays and "stopping rifle" at the Vintagers match. I am very happy to have it. Thanks, Squid

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master

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    A better pic and more of them would be nice but I am drooling anyway! That looks like a very nice gun and just what I would like.

    I will never own an H&H Paradox gun, even a very used one! There is a used one:

    https://griffinhowe.com/holland-&-ho...x-12g-hol15833

    New prices run £130,000.00:

    https://hollandandholland.com/guns/the-paradox-gun

    I would be happy with your Manton and an internet buddy picked up a Gibbs for a price even I can afford. I have fanatsized about owning one of these Paradox guns since I was a kid. One day maybe. Until then I live cicariously through people like you! Thanks for post the pic and more would be appreciated. Also, I'd be very interested in seeing results using the Paradox boolit.

    Do you have or do you want the article Ross Seyfried wrote on developing a load for his Paradox gun? I can email it to you if you send your email address. It is way to big to post here.

    Longbow

  16. #16
    Boolit Bub
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    Longbow, G&H actually has three H&H Paradox guns. One 10 gauge and two 12's. One of the twelves has a scope mounted as well. G&H is only about an hour from me and I go there every so often just to look and drool. I have Ross's article but worked out some of my own loads with Tom Armbrust. A fine fellow and great ballistician too. Here is a closer pix of the gun and one of my reloads. That's a 700 grain CBE hollow point.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is the first target i shot with the gun using newly manufactured H&H ammo. This was shot at fifty yards off-hand. I was a little jittery for the first couple and managed to sail one off the side. That was five years ago.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have more pictures if anyone is interested. I am not a gun snob but managed to trade up enough times that I could finally afford something like this. It's not an H&H but I wouldn't trade it for anything. Thanks, Squid

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master

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    That is drool worthy I must say! Thanks for posting pics and if you have more I know I would like to see them.

    Do you mind sharing your load data? Is it safe in a 12 ga. shotgun or is pressure higher for the Paradox gun?

    Thanks for posting that!

    Longbow

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    An 8 or 10 gauge paradox or fully rifled would really turn my crank but a 12 would be awesome as well . I’d like it even better if the gun were an American made Parker Bros but I know they never made any .
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I have an old Double Gun Journal around here somewhere that they were working up loads for double 8 and 10 bores .
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
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    The loads I have for this have been tested and should be safe as I try for the lowest practical pressures that get the job done. The Manton is also nitro proof. I don't like to just publish data so if anyone is interested please PM me. Tom Armbrust did all the testing for me.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is a photo of the rifled choke in the right barrel. Not the "ratchet" style of the rifling where the sharp edge drives the slug. One side is spiraled clockwise and the other is counter clockwise. I am always amazed that this form of rifling can impart a spin on a 700 to 740 grain slug hitting it at around 1150 fps. I tried to carefully measure the twist rate and it seems to be about 1 turn in 30 inches and possibly a bit more. Thanks, Squid Boy

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check