Favorite self defense load for a 38 snub?

[gwpercle]

38 Special +P - I have two favored loads

1.) 160 gr. cast wadcutter - Lyman 358432 or NOE 360-160-WC (360432)
Air cooled - 50/50 COWW and scrap lead - sized .358" - Lithi-Bee lube
5.2 grs. Unique @ 968 fps - es= 38 / sd = 10

2.) Use Same Boolit as in load #1 -
4.7 grs. W231 @ 937 fps - es = 36 / sd = 9

These are the loads I like to shoot out of my Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum but I have two S&W revolvers rated for +P , one a J-frame snub nose that usually goes with me when I walk out the door or follows me around the house ... it's usually loaded with #1 but sometimes it's #2 . These loads are not punishing to shoot and accurate . A 15 shot group will be one ragged hole about 1 1/2" in diameter at 50 feet ...Sweet !!! Well ...it used to be ... my eyesight isn't as good as it was but the loads are capable !
Gary

[Bill*B]

The truth is - it really doesn't matter. Whatever you have in the gun. They will all do the trick.
But since you asked: my favorites:
For the non-handloader: any major label factory wadcutter.
For the handloader: the Accurate 36-193D over 3.2 grains of Alliant Bulls Eye powder.
But - it really doesn't matter. All .38 Special loads will work just fine. My 2 cents.

[M-Tecs]

My sister has arthritis issues in her hands and a wrists so I provide her with factory 38 Special WC's. Most if not all 38 Special WC are designed for target shooting. Federal Gold Medal 38 Special WC is 690 fps out of a 4" Winchester WC's are 710 fps. Black Hill's are 700 fps.

Out of her S&W 1 7/8" velocity is just under 650 fps. That is the most she can handle. For me regardless of the bullet used out of a 1 7/8 barrel I want at least 900 fps.

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/a...-self-defense/

For factory WC this is about as good as it gets https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=111

[pettypace]

My sister has arthritis issues in her hands and a wrists so I provide her with factory 38 Special WC's. Most if not all 38 Special WC are designed for target shooting. Federal Gold Medal 38 Special WC is 690 fps out of a 4" Winchester WC's are 710 fps. Black Hill's are 700 fps.

Out of her S&W 1 7/8" velocity is just under 650 fps. That is the most she can handle. For me regardless of the bullet used out of a 1 7/8 barrel I want at least 900 fps.

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/a...-self-defense/

For factory WC this is about as good as it gets https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=111

M-Tecs: I enjoyed the Tactical Life article. Thanks for posting the link!

I was happy to see Tactical Life affirm that ... pistol bullets can only damage tissue by actually crushing that tissue. There is no “energy dump” or “hydrostatic shock” with pistol bullets, only actual tissue damage.

But I do wish we could finally get around to actually quantifying and comparing "tissue damage" as MacPherson suggested in Bullet Penetration almost 30 years ago. Maybe something like this (where "This Load" bar in red represents the wound mass of a .38 target WC fired from a snubby):

[pmer]

I am using some fancy named 125 grain JHP like Thor's Hammer or Mall Ninja ver. 2.0. But I have a Lyman mold 358432 160 grain button nose wad cutter. These recent threads have me thinking about casting a few pounds of them.

Not only that but I unloaded my Smith model 637 and it was full of debris and pulling the hammer made a sound that was worse than the sound my knees make going up the stairs. Its better now.

850 FPS is still 580 miles per hour I think there has to be at least some hydrostatic effect at snub nose velocity just not as much as one would see from the same projectile going 2200 FPS.

[fjruple]

I like the slow speed with a heavy bullet. I reload with 2.5 grains of 700x with a soft lead 200 grain RN MKI bullet. I found these bullets to tumble on impact. No over penetration. I am limited in New Jersey on what bullets I can use, no hollow points permitted.

[Goldstar225]

Speer gold dot 135 grain +P short barrel.

[pettypace]

I like the slow speed with a heavy bullet. I reload with 2.5 grains of 700x with a soft lead 200 grain RN MKI bullet. I found these bullets to tumble on impact. No over penetration. I am limited in New Jersey on what bullets I can use, no hollow points permitted.

I don't think anyone knows (or maybe even can know) whether the tumbling 200 grain RN .38 is more effective from a snubby than a .38 target wadcutter. There's a mile long thread called Fun with a Webley Mark IV 38/200 AKA 38 S&W AKA 380 Rimmed sticky-ed to the top of this forum with a lot of info on the question.

But some things are certain:

*Not all 200 grain RN .38 boolits are created equal. Some "tumble" and some go scary-straight. If a 200 grainer goes straight, it will have too much penetration and not enough wound mass. In that case, the target wadcutter is the clear winner.
*The 200 grainers will probably shoot higher than the sights of the snubby.
*I've loaded some 200 grain "tumblers" at about 625 f/s that would barely meet the 12" FBI minimum penetration standard. In that case, again, the WC wins.
*Whether they "tumble" or not, 200 grain RN boolits will fall into the cylinder easier than the WCs. For reloading under duress, the RN is the clear winner.
*At anything like similar velocities, say, 650 f/s for the WC and 625 f/s for the 200 grainer, the WC will have noticeably lighter recoil and should be easier to control for faster and more accurate follow-up shots.

All things considered, I'd be tempted to load target WCs in the cylinder and save the 200 grainers for the speedloader.

[Jtarm]

Wen or Rem 158 gr SWCHP +P in 2" barreled revolver. I\d like to ge the Speer 135 GD's to try and compare.

That’s what I carry for my reloads, in case I expend all six wadcutters.

The Remington expands pretty well, not as spectacularly as the equivalent Buffalo Bore load, but it costs a whole lot less, so I can afford to practice with it occasionally.

[cainttype]

Attachment 304287

But some things are certain:

*Not all 200 grain RN .38 boolits are created equal. Some "tumble" and some go scary-straight. If a 200 grainer goes straight, it will have too much penetration and not enough wound mass. In that case, the target wadcutter is the clear winner.
*The 200 grainers will probably shoot higher than the sights of the snubby.
*I've loaded some 200 grain "tumblers" at about 625 f/s that would barely meet the 12" FBI minimum penetration standard.

These “heavies” don’t lack either penetration or diameter for a massive permanent wound cavity.
715fps from a compact snubby performs all out of proportion, and combines ease of carry/conceal-ability with performance that is eye-opening.


Attachment 304284Attachment 304285Attachment 304286

[Daekar]

I'm going to take this opportunity to plug the mold that Accurate made for me, the 36-159S. Design was refined with input from our gurus here. It's got a 0.300 meplat, so close to a full wadcutter, and is radiused for use with speedloaders. I've been carrying it in my Model 60 for a while and it has been great. I consider it very controllable at 800 to 850fps.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...bullet=36-159S

[Texas by God]

Speer swaged 158gr hp over 3.5grs Red Dot or Hornady Critical Defense in the .38 Special.
I remember an old Dean Grennel article where they tested the 200gr .38 Special load from a snubnose revolver - on a car..."Halt, or I'll scratch your paint!"

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[pettypace]

Attachment 304287


These “heavies” don’t lack either penetration or diameter for a massive permanent wound cavity.
715fps from a compact snubby performs all out of proportion, and combines ease of carry/conceal-ability with performance that is eye-opening.


Attachment 304284Attachment 304285Attachment 304286

Well, that's interesting! And just when I had almost given up on getting a heavy hollow point to roll over into a classic mushroom shape (instead of a trumpet shape) at snubby velocities.


What bullet is that? And what alloy are you using?

[MarkP]

Was a NOE 180 gr WFN over Power Pistol; when Wal-Mart was getting rid of their handgun ammo I bought several boxes of Rem Golden Sabre 125 gr HP and I use them now. The 125 gr bullets are seated to max length the heals are only about 1/8" into the mouth of the case. Never shot over chrono but they are pretty snappy rounds in a J-Frame Air Wt.

[hc18flyer]

I'm going to take this opportunity to plug the mold that Accurate made for me, the 36-159S. Design was refined with input from our gurus here. It's got a 0.300 meplat, so close to a full wadcutter, and is radiused for use with speedloaders. I've been carrying it in my Model 60 for a while and it has been great. I consider it very controllable at 800 to 850fps.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...bullet=36-159S

Not very pretty, bet it would be effective!

[Electrod47]

I don't think anyone knows (or maybe even can know) whether the tumbling 200 grain RN .38 is more effective from a snubby than a .38 target wadcutter. There's a mile long thread called Fun with a Webley Mark IV 38/200 AKA 38 S&W AKA 380 Rimmed sticky-ed to the top of this forum with a lot of info on the question.

But some things are certain:

*Not all 200 grain RN .38 boolits are created equal. Some "tumble" and some go scary-straight. If a 200 grainer goes straight, it will have too much penetration and not enough wound mass. In that case, the target wadcutter is the clear winner.
*The 200 grainers will probably shoot higher than the sights of the snubby.
*I've loaded some 200 grain "tumblers" at about 625 f/s that would barely meet the 12" FBI minimum penetration standard. In that case, again, the WC wins.
*Whether they "tumble" or not, 200 grain RN boolits will fall into the cylinder easier than the WCs. For reloading under duress, the RN is the clear winner.
*At anything like similar velocities, say, 650 f/s for the WC and 625 f/s for the 200 grainer, the WC will have noticeably lighter recoil and should be easier to control for faster and more accurate follow-up shots.

All things considered, I'd be tempted to load target WCs in the cylinder and save the 200 grainers for the speedloader.

You only have to look at the expression on Lee Harvey Oswalds face as he received a 200 grain LRN in the upper torso, from a snub nose .38. Autopsy revealed it "swam" in a circular motion clipping his liver, lungs and tearing a hole in the bottom of his heart. He died in agony.

[Daekar]

Not very pretty, bet it would be effective!

Haha, no it's kind of a homely little thing isn't it? Loaded cartridges look a little funny too, especially in full magnum cases, almost like somebody seated a RF boolit too deep.

[cainttype]

Well, that's interesting! And just when I had almost given up on getting a heavy hollow point to roll over into a classic mushroom shape (instead of a trumpet shape) at snubby velocities.


What bullet is that? And what alloy are you using?

It’s actually a heavy soft lead home-swaged HBWC loaded backwards, using what was Corbin’s standard die from the early eighties… It is then pushed backwards into a .358” 4S point forming rifle die just enough to taper slightly for feeding into the cylinder.

The “fragile” skirt design leaves a sort of tapered cookie-cutter edge that “might” initiate expansion, kinda like the Hydra-Shok design channels fluid/material where pressure is needed for rapid expansion… But that’s just an observational impression.

The expansion seems utterly reliable over the years, and penetration is well-beyond what’s expected from the lowly “snubby”, easily blowing away many other options that have passed the FBI guidelines… They truly are surprisingly impressive.

The bullet is seated long, leaving minimal clearance to the cylinder’s front, and loaded with Unique to 700-715 fps.
One caveat, using a .356-357” die would better fit the Smith and Wesson chamber throats, as these formed in .358” require finger-pressed seating/ejection the first time to “size” the exposed bullet down a tiny bit.

[pettypace]

It’s actually a heavy soft lead home-swaged HBWC loaded backwards, using what was Corbin’s standard die from the early eighties… It is then pushed backwards into a .358” 4S point forming rifle die just enough to taper slightly for feeding into the cylinder.

The “fragile” skirt design leaves a sort of tapered cookie-cutter edge that “might” initiate expansion, kinda like the Hydra-Shok design channels fluid/material where pressure is needed for rapid expansion… But that’s just an observational impression.

The expansion seems utterly reliable over the years, and penetration is well-beyond what’s expected from the lowly “snubby”, easily blowing away many other options that have passed the FBI guidelines… They truly are surprisingly impressive.

The bullet is seated long, leaving minimal clearance to the cylinder’s front, and loaded with Unique to 700-715 fps.
One caveat, using a .356-357” die would better fit the Smith and Wesson chamber throats, as these formed in .358” require finger-pressed seating/ejection the first time to “size” the exposed bullet down a tiny bit.

Thanks for the info. Looks like I'm gonna be back to the lead pot tomorrow.

[armoredman]

Thank you all for some great ideas!