The Magical Meplat and Handgun Boolit Effectiveness

[pettypace]

Judging by the power of the "meplat" to blow unrelated threads off track (f'rinstance), I thought the "Magical Meplat" really deserved its own thread. Here it is...

To get the boolit spinning, let's start with somewhat different views from two well-regarded experts on the subject. Here's a diagram from Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (page 410) which should easily satisfy all four criteria for "fair use" of copyrighted material:



Note that Hatcher's numbers for "relative disruptive power" come from measuring the volumes of the holes the bullets punched in blocks of clay and that "It does not follow that the efficiency on flesh or bone follow these numbers..."

In his book Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics & the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma Duncan MacPherson basically concludes that the full, sharp-edged wadcutter crushes about 50% more gelatin than any of the other nose shapes and that differences among the other shapes are insignificant. However, MacPherson does suggest that when the flat nose of a bullet approaches the full diameter of the bullet, it makes sense (for estimating penetration and wound mass) to treat that bullet as a wadcutter of the diameter of the meplat.

[44MAG#1]

Let me ask you this. Let's take the 9MM. You have an enraged attacker 15 feet away with a knife and he is intent on lopping your head clear off your body, you have time for ONLY 2 shots with your choice of RN 115 gr or FN 115 grain bullets O N L Y and nothing else to choose from what would you choose?
Same thing for a 44 Special a 246 Gr RN or a 250 "Keith" at the same velocity? I am ONLY talking about the bullets mention in both examples ONLY. NOTHING ELSE. What would you choose?
BTW let's go further with the 44 Special what would you choose in this scenario, a 250 gr cast with a .250" Meplat or a 250 gr. Cast with a .300" Meplat at the same velocity?
BTW again. If one is talking about an alloy that is soft enough to change shape that is NOT keeping the MEPLAT question in focus. That puts it into the deforming category which would be in the Mushroom category.
This is about MEPLAT on a bullet that is deformation resistant.

[rintinglen]

When killing gelatin, a flat nose will kill it deader than a round nose, and the bigger the flat nose, the deader it gets.

Years ago I heard an emergency ward trauma surgeon disparage the notion of "magic" bullets. He worked at Rancho Dominguez Hospital back before its closure and he was scornful of anyone claiming to identify a handgun bullet type or caliber from an examination of a wound. He was of the opinion that what was hit mattered far more than what hit it.

Save for shotguns. He believed that shotguns at close range made for clearly identifiable, massive wounds that caused "horrific trauma" even when not immediately fatal.

All that being said, I'd still go with the bigger, ending meplat, having seen the effect of a .357 magnum that flattened out to just under a 1/2" while traversing the thigh of a 6'2" 260 pound man.

[44MAG#1]

Let's use equal placement idea. Equally good or equally bad. Not bad for one and good for the other
Bell killed many Elephant with a 7X57 Mauser.

[pettypace]

Let me ask you this. Let's take the 9MM. You have an enraged attacker 15 feet away with a knife and he is intent on lopping your head clear off your body, you have time for ONLY 2 shots with your choice of RN 115 gr or FN 115 grain bullets O N L Y and nothing else to choose from what would you choose?
Same thing for a 44 Special a 246 Gr RN or a 250 "Keith" at the same velocity? I am ONLY talking about the bullets mention in both examples ONLY. NOTHING ELSE. What would you choose?
BTW let's go further with the 44 Special what would you choose in this scenario, a 250 gr cast with a .250" Meplat or a 250 gr. Cast with a .300" Meplat at the same velocity?
BTW again. If one is talking about an alloy that is soft enough to change shape that is NOT keeping the MEPLAT question in focus. That puts it into the deforming category which would be in the Mushroom category.
This is about MEPLAT on a bullet that is deformation resistant.

This is what is sometimes called "The distinction without a difference fallacy." For example, in Hatcher's diagram above, it would be the distinction between bullets #3 and #4. If I had to choose between bullets #3 and #4, I'll take #6. Hatcher and MacPherson would agree on that even if 44MAG#1 still wants to argue the point.

[44MAG#1]

So if you couldn't get bullet 6 you would go with bullet 1. Because bullets 3 and 4 are no better than bullet 1?

This is what is sometimes called "The distinction without a difference fallacy." For example, in Hatcher's diagram above, it would be the distinction between bullets #3 and #4. If I had to choose between bullets #3 and #4, I'll take #6. Hatcher and MacPherson would agree on that even if 44MAG#1 still wants to argue the point.

[DougGuy]

If you want something to cease breathing quickly, use the biggest meplat you can use for the caliber.

All of these are loaded in 45 Schofield brass, the three on the right are all 250gr LBT offerings, of the three my choice for hunting is the far right load, LBT 250gr Ogival Wad Cutter.

This load chrony'ed at 1200fps, just under 23kpsi pressure (according to QL) did not have the ability to do any gelatin testing but most of us have seen enough gelatin results to agree the far right would probably create the biggest cavity.

Attachment 303973

[44MAG#1]

So bullets 6,8 and 11 aren't good? Their Meplat isn't big enough?

[Outpost75]

Observing from game results, using .44-.45 revolvers on deer, if the bullet does not expand, a meplat less than half of bullet diameter is no more effective than a round nose. A meplat 0.7 of the bullet diameter will rivet at 850 fps in soft 8-10 BHN alloy and give results similar to a wadcutter. The LBT wide flat noses and similar designs by Accurate are ideal.

The Accurate 45-264H is my design for the .45 Auto Rim and .45 Colt, using 4.5 grains of Bullseye in the .45 Auto Rim for the Colt M1917, 6.5 grains for the .45 Colt New Service and 7.5 grains in the Ruger Blackhawk, all with 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals sized .454" with 50-50 beeswax and olive oil.

[44MAG#1]

Let say it's not a soft alloy. What them. Is the Meplat of .7 of the bullet diameter no better than a lesser diameter than half bullet diameter

From game results, if the bullet does not expand, a meplat less than half of bullet diameter is no more effective than a round nose. A meplat 0.7 of the bullet diameter will rivet at 850 fps in soft 8-10 BHN alloy and give results similar to a wadcutter.

[DougGuy]

So bullets 6,8 and 11 aren't good? Their Meplat isn't big enough?

6, 8, 11 are plenty good enough. 6 is a 250gr LSWCHP GC boolit from Rimrock, it's the same boolit that Buffalo Bore loads in their "Deer Grenade" 45 Colt ammo.

Looking at the crimp groove placement for 12, 13, 14, they leave the most case capacity when seated to the crimp groove, these loads are for a medium frame Ruger New Model Vaquero which has a pressure ceiling of 23kpsi, same as 45ACP+P. I was able to get to 1200fps with 21.5gr H110 and WLP primer and still stay under the pressure ceiling. Couple that with the largest meplat of the bunch, should make a very good hunting load.

[44MAG#1]

So, in saying that, Meplat diameter plays a part in killing power?

6, 8, 11 are plenty good enough. 6 is a 250gr LSWCHP GC boolit from Rimrock, it's the same boolit that Buffalo Bore loads in their "Deer Grenade" 45 Colt ammo.

Looking at the crimp groove placement for 12, 13, 14, they leave the most case capacity when seated to the crimp groove, these loads are for a medium frame Ruger New Model Vaquero which has a pressure ceiling of 23kpsi, same as 45ACP+P. I was able to get to 1200fps with 21.5gr H110 and WLP primer and still stay under the pressure ceiling. Couple that with the largest meplat of the bunch, should make a very good hunting load.

[Outpost75]

Let say it's not a soft alloy. What them. Is the Meplat of .7 of the bullet diameter no better than a lesser diameter than half bullet diameter

Great question! A 0.7 meplat like original Keith type, is ideal, being a well proven killer on large game which doesn't need to expand. Straight-through, deep penetration, with good crush characteristics and no tumbling!

[Larry Gibson]

"He was of the opinion that what was hit mattered far more than what hit it."

Concurring with the above, with some reservations, and given the OPs scenario I would use either bullet in either cartridge and shoot the miscreant in the groin/pelvic area then move away from him as he collapses.

[rintinglen]

Let's say we lose our minds and make our bullets out of soft steel with a Brinell hardness of ~120. Each weighs exactly 162 grains. We make one that tapers to a needle point and one that has a meplat as flat as pane of glass. We fire them from the same barrel at precisely the same velocity, exactly 926.2 fps.

The needle point will penetrate soft body armor better and the better ballistic coefficient will allow for a flatter trajectory. The flat point will cause more tissue disruption but will destabilize sooner due to its inferior aerodynamic abilities.

Or we could acknowledge the millions spent on developing hollow-point expanding bullets that function to create the largest frontal area possible was done not merely as a sales gimmick but as an acknowledgement that size matters when attempting to destroy tissue with kinetic energy.

[44MAG#1]

So we are using placement instead of the Meplat lethality question?

"He was of the opinion that what was hit mattered far more than what hit it."

Concurring with the above, with some reservations, and given the OPs scenario I would use either bullet in either cartridge and shoot the miscreant in the groin/pelvic area then move away from him as he collapses.

[44MAG#1]

So we are jumping from one extreme to the other with no in-between?

Let's say we lose our minds and make our bullets out of soft steel with a Brinell hardness of ~120. Each weighs exactly 162 grains. We make one that tapers to a needle point and one that has a meplat as flat as pane of glass. We fire them from the same barrel at precisely the same velocity, exactly 926.2 fps.

The needle point will penetrate soft body armor better and the better ballistic coefficient will allow for a flatter trajectory. The flat point will cause more tissue disruption but will destabilize sooner due to its inferior aerodynamic abilities.

Or we could acknowledge the millions spent on developing hollow-point expanding bullets that function to create the largest frontal area possible was done not merely as a sales gimmick but as an acknowledgement that size matters when attempting to destroy tissue with kinetic energy.

[BLAHUT]

Head shot, end of therate, learn to hit what you aim at>

[44MAG#1]

To me that would pertain to a question concerning bullet placement and not Meplat effectiveness.
Although Meplat effectiveness can be effective there too.

Head shot, end of therate, learn to hit what you aim at>

[Larry Gibson]

So we are using placement instead of the Meplat lethality question?

Your sceanrio is; "You have an enraged attacker 15 feet away with a knife and he is intent on lopping your head clear off your body, you have time for ONLY 2 shots with your choice of RN 115 gr or FN 115 grain bullets O N L Y and nothing else to choose from what would you choose?"

What I'm saying is, given your scenario, two shots to the groin/pelvic is going to put the miscreant down regardless of the bullet shape used. Same could be said for two shots to the head.......

If you've a miscreant coming at you with a knife from 15 feet away neither of the bullet shapes from either cartridge is going to "stop" the miscreant before he reaches you with any "center mass" shot unless the spinal column is severely damaged. Thus, how much "damage" is done by the shape of either bullet becomes a moot point, given your scenario. That scenario is much different than what either bullet from either cartridge may do "killing" a game animal. If you've studied enough actual shooting scenarios with those two cartridges and bullet shapes, you'll find either cartridge with either bullet stands about a 50+/- % chance of "stopping" the average miscreant with "center mass" hits. However, If that miscreant is a psycho or hyped up on drugs then neither cartridge with either bullet is going to "stop" him with 2 "center mass" shots before he gets to you. Two hits with either cartridge to the groin/pelvis will.