The Magical Meplat and Handgun Boolit Effectiveness

[44MAG#1]

Okay, so with you saying that what if it was a 45 Auto with a choice of a RN or a FN with a .7 of bullet diameter Meplat? So, with a 9MM if the only choice you had were a RN or FN ammo you couldn't care less what it is loaded with due to the poor stopping power delivered by it to begin with, with bullet shape?

Your sceanrio is; "You have an enraged attacker 15 feet away with a knife and he is intent on lopping your head clear off your body, you have time for ONLY 2 shots with your choice of RN 115 gr or FN 115 grain bullets O N L Y and nothing else to choose from what would you choose?"

What I'm saying is, given your scenario, two shots to the groin/pelvic is going to put the miscreant down regardless of the bullet shape used. Same could be said for two shots to the head.......

If you've a miscreant coming at you with a knife from 15 feet away neither of the bullet shapes from either cartridge is going to "stop" the miscreant before he reaches you with any "center mass" shot unless the spinal column is severely damaged. Thus, how much "damage" is done by the shape of either bullet becomes a moot point, given your scenario. That scenario is much different than what either bullet from either cartridge may do "killing" a game animal. If you've studied enough actual shooting scenarios with those two cartridges and bullet shapes, you'll find either cartridge with either bullet stands about a 50+/- % chance of "stopping" the average miscreant with "center mass" hits. However, If that miscreant is a psycho or hyped up on drugs then neither cartridge with either bullet is going to "stop" him with 2 "center mass" shots before he gets to you. Two hits with either cartridge to the groin/pelvis will.

[murf205]

"What I'm saying is, given your scenario, two shots to the groin/pelvic is going to put the miscreant down regardless of the bullet shape used."

And, I used to think a football helmet to that area hurt!! Mine hurt just to think of getting shot there.

[murf205]

Observing from game results, using .44-.45 revolvers on deer, if the bullet does not expand, a meplat less than half of bullet diameter is no more effective than a round nose. A meplat 0.7 of the bullet diameter will rivet at 850 fps in soft 8-10 BHN alloy and give results similar to a wadcutter. The LBT wide flat noses and similar designs by Accurate are ideal.

The Accurate 45-264H is my design for the .45 Auto Rim and .45 Colt, using 4.5 grains of Bullseye in the .45 Auto Rim for the Colt M1917, 6.5 grains for the .45 Colt New Service and 7.5 grains in the Ruger Blackhawk, all with 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals sized .454" with 50-50 beeswax and olive oil.

You gotta' love those boolits with big flatties on the front end. I like your 45-264H and I would wager it loads easily with the small bevel base. My 45 auto rim/Colt boolit is the 45-253M. When you shoot a target with a heavy cardboard backer at 50 yds, it sounds off with a resounding SMACK. Thank goodness I've never had to shoot a bad guy but I can't see where either one would do him any good. BUT....if a RN was all I had I'd take that over a knife any day, especially where Larry said to put them.

[sixshot]

Some of this arguing is funny! At 15 feet you better have all of this stuff already sorted out because you have less than 2 seconds to save your life. I've never heard of anyone wishing they had a smaller gun or bullet if they were in a gun fight...or a knife fight.
You better be fast & accurate or a knife can be quick & very fatal, so how fast can you retrieve your gun, possibly take it off safety & get off 2 shots becomes pretty important. Meplat should have been decided a long time ago, and shot placement has priority over everything else at 15 feet!!
Dick

[44MAG#1]

That senario was corney but had the idea to get people to think. I know a person with a knife at 15 feet can cut, maim, kill someone that has a gun. I am not the most intelligent person by a longshot but not totally dumb either..
The question was on Meplat and it's "Magical" properties. While there are no magic bullets most of us would select a FN bullet if faced with a lunatic with a knife or gun if a RN or a FN is all we had. Then some brings up bullet placement like it is some revelation when I mentioned Karamojo Bell and his 7X57 Mauser and his Elephant kills which was pointing to the all time known idea that bullet placement is paramount.
Funny thing is the Meplat thing doesn't want to be addressed so the only bullet designs evidentially should only be RN, WC and a mushrooming bullet.
That is my take away.

Some of this arguing is funny! At 15 feet you better have all of this stuff already sorted out because you have less than 2 seconds to save your life. I've never heard of anyone wishing they had a smaller gun or bullet if they were in a gun fight...or a knife fight.
You better be fast & accurate or a knife can be quick & very fatal, so how fast can you retrieve your gun, possibly take it off safety & get off 2 shots becomes pretty important. Meplat should have been decided a long time ago, and shot placement has priority over everything else at 15 feet!!
Dick

[charlie b]

I'd agree with you except for semi-autos and the reliability of WC designs.

Personally, if I am casting the bullets for self defense and most hunting, I like the SWC or WFN designs. If I am buying them I go to something that is well engineered for the task, whether is it a specialized hollow point or a solid.

And, yeah, if you need to stop someone it takes a well placed shot and enough penetration.

[HWooldridge]

Some of this arguing is funny! At 15 feet you better have all of this stuff already sorted out because you have less than 2 seconds to save your life. I've never heard of anyone wishing they had a smaller gun or bullet if they were in a gun fight...or a knife fight.
You better be fast & accurate or a knife can be quick & very fatal, so how fast can you retrieve your gun, possibly take it off safety & get off 2 shots becomes pretty important. Meplat should have been decided a long time ago, and shot placement has priority over everything else at 15 feet!!
Dick

We did this exercise in my CCW class. The instructor was ex-military and very proficient. He asked for a volunteer to come at him with a rubber knife so I raised my hand. I “stuck” him every time from 20 feet and closer, unless he already had his hand on his weapon. He wasn’t offended by those results and used the demo to make the point to the class that you best be paying attention if someone confronts you - it can all go south in a heartbeat. I also used the “jailhouse rush” - which is leading with the weak side shoulder and hiding the knife in the strong hand. We were also in a well-lit, sterile classroom where everyone was friendly but most street fights take place at night.

I carry a five shot S&W revolver, loaded with 158 SWC boolits because it’s light and I can get it out quickly. I would clearly be at a disadvantage dueling with someone at 50 yards but I’m not overly concerned about that situation.

[44MAG#1]

Back to the magic of Meplats and the wounding ability of them?

[GhostHawk]

In my life I have shot a few grouse and a few pigeon's at closer than ideal range.

The term I like is "Bloody Rat Hole" Even a .410 can leave a hole almost big enough to stick your hand in.
12 ga you can go in up to the wrist for sure.

Ohhh and I agree with Blahut, shoot em in the head. The eyeball preferably. Even if it is not instantly fatal they are going to have bigger problems than they had before. And if they should somehow for some reason get up and start coming at you again. Shoot em in the other eye. At that point you should be able to dodge them.

[M-Tecs]

Have shot a fair amount of game with bullets that are not expanding due to lower velocities I am 100% convinced that the larger the Meplat the more energy transfer.

The British Empire in the late 1800's shot a lot of people and did a lot of development of manstopper bullets. The most effective per their actual experience was the double ended hollow point wadcutter design. It was so effective it was deemed to cruel on the world stage so it was changed to just a flat point wadcutter design that saw very limited or no combat use for the same reason.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page...455-cartridges

It was about this time that the British Government became fixated with "stopping power" (remember the .303 Mk III - "Dum Dum" was approved for service in 1897 and it wasn’t until the 1899 Hague Convention that such ammunition was considered, well, unsporting.) This trend extended to the .455 revolver ammunition and, as a result, the Mark III .455 cartridge appeared in 1898. This has the same .760 ins case but the bullet had a deep nose cavity which reduced its weight to around 220 grains – referred to as the "Manstopper" bullet. Cordite was again the propellant of choice. Some Mark III cases were later loaded with Mark II (conical lead) bullets.

Obviously production of the Mark III was overtaken by international events and sentiments. It was removed from service in 1900 and the Mark II cartridge was re-instated as a stop-gap measure. Some lengthy experimentation then took place to come up with a more effective bullet and it wasn’t until 12 years later (1912) that the .455 Mark IV cartridge emerged. This used the same case as the previous marks, with a cordite charge and the bullet was 220 grains but with a completely flat nose – basically a full wadcutter in today’s terms. At this point it should be noted that the collector may encounter .455 cartridges which have a bullet nose that is slightly rounded rather than completely flat. These are not Mark IV rounds but commercial target rounds sometimes loaded on surplus military cases.

The same fear that had resulted in the Mark III "Manstopper" being removed from service resurfaced with the "wadcutter" Mark IV. As a result, the Mark II, reintroduced when the Mark III was withdrawn, remained the service cartridge until the introduction of the Mark VI (see below).

[pmer]

Why not move forward and step to his weak side and trip him up as he stumbles by. At that point he's so pissed he won't be able to do anything.

[44MAG#1]

Another great answer to the original post.

Why not move forward and step to his weak side and trip him up as he stumbles by. At that point he's so pissed he won't be able to do anything.

[Larry Gibson]

Okay, so with you saying that what if it was a 45 Auto with a choice of a RN or a FN with a .7 of bullet diameter Meplat? So, with a 9MM if the only choice you had were a RN or FN ammo you couldn't care less what it is loaded with due to the poor stopping power delivered by it to begin with, with bullet shape?

Not saying that at all. I would take the same groin/pelvic shot regardless of whether it was with a 45 ACP, 44 magnum or any handgun for PD. You're missing the point; the point is to stop the miscreant from reaching me period. whether or not the size of one meplat is more effective than a RN is moot. It's not about which bullet is more "effective" it's about incapacitating the miscreant.

If hunting game animals or varmints it's a different story. But they were not in your scenario. If you want an answer to that then change the scenario.

[pmer]

Yeah the trouble is you are probably stuck doing what ever your first thought was at the time.

[HWooldridge]

If meplat size was the magic answer, everyone would be shooting wadcutters, to the exclusion of all other designs.

[44MAG#1]

If meplat size was the magic answer, everyone would be shooting wadcutters, to the exclusion of all other designs.

So with that being said you would pick a RN if no Wadcutter was available over a reasonable sized meplat FN bullet in a deformation resistant bullet?

[Jtarm]

If you want something to cease breathing quickly, use the biggest meplat you can use for the caliber.

All of these are loaded in 45 Schofield brass, the three on the right are all 250gr LBT offerings, of the three my choice for hunting is the far right load, LBT 250gr Ogival Wad Cutter.

This load chrony'ed at 1200fps, just under 23kpsi pressure (according to QL) did not have the ability to do any gelatin testing but most of us have seen enough gelatin results to agree the far right would probably create the biggest cavity.

Attachment 303973

How wide is the meplat on the LBT OGW?

[HWooldridge]

So with that being said you would pick a RN if no Wadcutter was available over a reasonable sized meplat FN bullet in a deformation resistant bullet?

That depends on the caliber. The 45 ACP RN has a reputation for working well as a stopper of all things alive - and generally feeds more reliably in stock pistols so I would be happy with RN in that scenario.

I’ll turn my statement into a question for you, why isn’t everyone shooting full wadcutters?

[44MAG#1]

Why are you asking me? Please explain and I will try to answer.

That depends on the caliber. The 45 ACP RN has a reputation for working well as a stopper of all things alive - and generally feeds more reliably in stock pistols so I would be happy with RN in that scenario.

I’ll turn my statement into a question for you, why isn’t everyone shooting full wadcutters?

[44MAG#1]

I will say this I have nine 45 Autos. Six 1911's and 3 Glocks and carry a 230 grain version of the Saeco 058 without any modifications to the guns.
But I realized it is not a destructive bullet.