Can BP be enhanced?

[Concerned Aussie]

Can black powder be enhanced by adding fast burning smokeless , or compressed , made into certain shapes , use of magnum, pistol or rifle primers ect ?
I did read years ago it was common to add 10% pistol powder to a black powder charge, for cleaner burning & less fowling ect.
With powder & component shortages & sky rocketing prices , I’d like to future proof my passion & hunting, with the potential use of cast boolits , d I y BP , maybe paper patches or natural lube remedies ect & spark plugs. Not to mention the cost savings of cast & d I y BP for plinking & having fun.

[M-Tecs]

Duplexing a load is not mixing. The smokeless is dropped first and yes it does reduce fouling greatly. Blending powder is a much different animal and it not recommended.

[243winxb]

The military uses BP. Search "Black Powder" here- https://discover.dtic.mil/

[indian joe]

Can black powder be enhanced by adding fast burning smokeless , or compressed , made into certain shapes , use of magnum, pistol or rifle primers ect ?
I did read years ago it was common to add 10% pistol powder to a black powder charge, for cleaner burning & less fowling ect.
With powder & component shortages & sky rocketing prices , I’d like to future proof my passion & hunting, with the potential use of cast boolits , d I y BP , maybe paper patches or natural lube remedies ect & spark plugs. Not to mention the cost savings of cast & d I y BP for plinking & having fun.

duplex loading works great but look at a medium burn rate smokeless, AR2205 (IMI 4227) is ideal , density is almost identical to Black powder 10% seems to be common. You still need to clean after each shooting session to get the remnant BP residue out but with suitable lube can shoot all day.

[Harter66]

Making your own BP is one way .
Screened requires , in C&B or ML , about 140% to match FFG .
Joe slightly above average with good wood selection and pure components can reach Swiss quality with corning and good separation screens .

My studies of the "black arts" lead me to a war in France that resulted in Brown Powder . I never tried any of to make any but basically they left the sulphur out and eliminated most of the smoke . The down side was that the ignition point also goes way up .

I suspect that the science that gave France low smoke Brown Powder lead to gun cotton and eventually true smokeless powder. In part trying to find something to replace the sulphur ignition point reduction.

One should dig a lot deeper than one post here for good information. I quit after I found I could get FFg comparable results without picking , grinding , and sifting in 58 Rem , 2nd mod Dragoon , and Hawkins styled rifles .
I loaded some commercial FFFg in 45 Colts but just couldn't talk myself into scooping , tamping , scooping, and seating a bullet on the screened .

[Concerned Aussie]

Thanks guy’s! That’s a great start.
Very appreciated.

[tmanbuckhunter]

From tests I've read of people who were fortunate enough to get their hands on BP of the late 19th century, is that it was much better than even the best powder we have today (swiss) due to its higher moisture content. It may be harder to get the same quality ingredients in 2022.

[Harter66]

From tests I've read of people who were fortunate enough to get their hands on BP of the late 19th century, is that it was much better than even the best powder we have today (swiss) due to its higher moisture content. It may be harder to get the same quality ingredients in 2022.

Here's an interesting idea .
Hercules originally in Hercules CA was a major supplier of BP to the gold rush and a couple of wars circa 1825-1875 they used alder after the willow and cottonwood were depleted for charcoal.
While willow in particular black willow has made a comeback south of the Mason-Dixon and east of Texas in 4 yr of wandering Arkansas and into Missouri there just aren't any cottonwood or poplar trees . In fact there really isn't much at all in the way of softwood .

I don't think that the purity per say of the components is the root of the difference. Our most remedial tools to make BP and even hardware store garden supplies are probably cleaner that the best they could build or refine in 1870 . We have 92-99.98% potassium chloride. Sulphur is readily available 95% plus , and we can literally control the temperature rise, fall , and duration to 3° and seconds to make charcoal . Heck a HF bearing press and a $20 pressure gauge will get pucking within 5psi and screen packages from 40-100 mesh will get you powder grades from flash to canon . Charcoal wood is really the only wild card and whatever it is filtering out of the air and water may well be the major difference.

Then we enter grind and blending of components was the charcoal actually beat down until it was fine silt talc like air float dust ? I mean even the really good flour wasn't much finer than probably 1/3-1/4 of what we buy for corn meal now . Can you even imagine the finger dip QC for the chamber pot and barn straw boil and trap saltpeter? Sure it was a science and driven by market but the source was biological and subjective at best . Sodium, sulphur, calcium, nitrogen could swing wildly with the seasons or even storms .

The BP of yore may have simply been more consistent being made every day by the same guy on the same line and by the ton maybe tons per run .

[Castaway]

Im not clear as to what level you want to enhance to. As is, black powder will take down anything on earth. It’s consistency makes it accurate beyond what most mortals can see to shoot. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

[Concerned Aussie]

Im not clear as to what level you want to enhance to. As is, black powder will take down anything on earth. It’s consistency makes it accurate beyond what most mortals can see to shoot. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Certainly nothing outrageous. Just as clean burning as possible within reason!
Getting back into cast boolit shooting & hunting , my mind is racing & ticking over constantly about this subject these past few weeks. Reading meplat diameter, weight , sectional density & velocity & alloy relationships ect , I’m thinking great hunting performance seems to be achieved at BP velocity! Boolit alloy & velocity & pressure & lube play another roll & I’m figuring BP might get me the low pressure needed for the softer alloy at the right velocity for the hunting conditions I experience. I’m thinking 303 British 1st but even other calibers in repeating ( bolt - lever action ) rifles should work just fine , but the cleaner burning “ the better “ ???? If good - very good accuracy can be achieved & can fire ten’s of rounds over a day at the range or while out hunting at ranges upto maybe 150-200y ! And be done at a fraction of the cost of smokeless & red tipped vld jacketed stuff. I might be able to hook in some of my mates to share this interest. As well as keep me shooting more & for longer.
Less noise , less recoil & less cost & great hunting performance from old school rifles.
Getting back to basics or back to the future .

[uscra112]

In the early 20th century there was a product generally called "semi-smokeless" which was an intimate mixture of black powder and nitrocellulose. One brand was "King's", and another was "Lesmoke". There has been some discussion on the Web about these, but how accurate the information is I cannot tell. I personally would have no interest in trying to recreate them. They didn't work all that well, if contemporary writers are to be believed.

[john.k]

I believe if you want correct information on early powders such as straw powder,coffee powder,and semi smokeless (the main use of these was big guns ,such as naval guns where a few hundred f/s equalled outranging an enemy ship.).........anyhoo,find a copy of the likes of T.Davis /Powders and Explosives.

[indian joe]

Certainly nothing outrageous. Just as clean burning as possible within reason!
Getting back into cast boolit shooting & hunting , my mind is racing & ticking over constantly about this subject these past few weeks. Reading meplat diameter, weight , sectional density & velocity & alloy relationships ect , I’m thinking great hunting performance seems to be achieved at BP velocity! Boolit alloy & velocity & pressure & lube play another roll & I’m figuring BP might get me the low pressure needed for the softer alloy at the right velocity for the hunting conditions I experience. I’m thinking 303 British 1st but even other calibers in repeating ( bolt - lever action ) rifles should work just fine , but the cleaner burning “ the better “ ???? If good - very good accuracy can be achieved & can fire ten’s of rounds over a day at the range or while out hunting at ranges upto maybe 150-200y ! And be done at a fraction of the cost of smokeless & red tipped vld jacketed stuff. I might be able to hook in some of my mates to share this interest. As well as keep me shooting more & for longer.
Less noise , less recoil & less cost & great hunting performance from old school rifles.
Getting back to basics or back to the future .

if your 303 has a good barrel - slug it and measure CBE in Qld has a good range of molds that suit
You are limited to whatever Blackpowder you can get your hands on (Wano), only way to get it cleaner burning is load duplex.

In the 303 (I dont own one) - I would put 5 or 6 grains of AR2205 in on the primer, then however much blackpowder it takes to fill the case halfway from shoulder crease (where neck meets shoulder) halfway from there to top of neck

[missionary5155]

For cleaner burn in the barrel switch to a finer grade of powder. We fire alot of Goex 3F in our rifles to reduce fouling. Using a heavier cast slug also also aids for better burn.

[Concerned Aussie]

Thanks again to all of the replies.
Yes I do believe the duplex loading & heavy boolit is what I’m look at . AR2205 isn’t made anymore to my knowledge or any of the pistol or shotgun powders . Benchmark 1 , 2 & 8208 & then 2207 are the fastest available to my knowledge. Night all

[Brimstone]

A lot can be done. Heavy slug to charge ratio. Heavy crimp. Both. That will add dwell time to a cartridge and allow more thorough burn of the charge.
Additional measures are charge compression, hollow charging using a BACO tool that compresses the charge but leaves a hollow down the center so ignition is through the channel and along the entire charge. Think Pyrodex pellet but inside a cartridge.
Smokeless duplex is an option as you asked. Ideal made meters that threw both a small smokeless and then main BP charge on top. No 6 IIRC.

Shame no commercial outfits make C&H type powder. Much cleaner burning than American style powder.

Also, look into greased felt wads. I am a fan of this technique. It works wonders on fouling. A yard of 1/8 thick felt sheet goes a long way.

Another option is BigLube style bullets. Various mold makers make molds that use large grease grooves. These rely on controlled compression of the narrow waisted groove to place the grease under hydraulic pressure to fill any gaps in the joint between bullet and rifling. Keeps grease under force against the bore. Requires tuning alloy yo charge and can be difficult if not fully understood. Can be either terribly mangled or entirely ineffective.
I say greased felt is superior in ease of use but takes up capacity. Can be useful for reduced loads in long cartridges.

[indian joe]

Thanks again to all of the replies.
Yes I do believe the duplex loading & heavy boolit is what I’m look at . AR2205 isn’t made anymore to my knowledge or any of the pistol or shotgun powders . Benchmark 1 , 2 & 8208 & then 2207 are the fastest available to my knowledge. Night all

Correct ADI says no manufacture of AR2205 until late 2022 - still several shops advertising it as in stock - if you can snag one can it goes a long way at 5 grains per

[indian joe]

A lot can be done. Heavy slug to charge ratio. Heavy crimp. Both. That will add dwell time to a cartridge and allow more thorough burn of the charge.
Additional measures are charge compression, hollow charging using a BACO tool that compresses the charge but leaves a hollow down the center so ignition is through the channel and along the entire charge. Think Pyrodex pellet but inside a cartridge.
Smokeless duplex is an option as you asked. Ideal made meters that threw both a small smokeless and then main BP charge on top. No 6 IIRC.

Shame no commercial outfits make C&H type powder. Much cleaner burning than American style powder.

Also, look into greased felt wads. I am a fan of this technique. It works wonders on fouling. A yard of 1/8 thick felt sheet goes a long way.

Another option is BigLube style bullets. Various mold makers make molds that use large grease grooves. These rely on controlled compression of the narrow waisted groove to place the grease under hydraulic pressure to fill any gaps in the joint between bullet and rifling. Keeps grease under force against the bore. Requires tuning alloy yo charge and can be difficult if not fully understood. Can be either terribly mangled or entirely ineffective.
I say greased felt is superior in ease of use but takes up capacity. Can be useful for reduced loads in long cartridges.

Do you know what wood was used for the charcoal in C&H powder ?

I shot a little of it many years ago but didnt know what i was doing - seemed like it needed a bit more to get the same result.

I fluked some chinese fireworks powder (early 1990's) that shot clean as any I ever found - was a little quiet in action - much like C&H

similar source (china) stuff ten years later had better energy but way dirty to shoot

[john.k]

Id be careful of Chinese firework powder..........they have a habit of adding 'improvements" that may be somewhat dangerous......stuff like sodium picrate,and crude nitrocellulose.

[indian joe]

Id be careful of Chinese firework powder..........they have a habit of adding 'improvements" that may be somewhat dangerous......stuff like sodium picrate,and crude nitrocellulose.

In their lift powder ????

no choice! - all we could get at the time - the stuff performed ok no problems after cleaning - just didnt burn as clean as we were used to - I shot a lot of Goex 5FA back before that - 1990-1998 - that also was fireworks powder and I copped a lot of derogatory comment about it (emanating from the importer of Wano which at that time was way inferior powder in every way we could measure) - its an academic argument at present, wano is back in supply the last several years, and we no longer have contacts in the fireworks business. One lesson in all of this = keep your cache of consumables up to the full mark at all times possible.