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Thread: 9x21

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    9x21

    Does anyone load for 9X21?

  2. #2
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    No, but yes on 9mm Largo.

    DG

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Other than the .38 acp having a semi rim, is there any big difference between a .38 ACP standard loadings vs a 9x21

    Google says: 38ACP
    Case length .900 in (22.9 mm)

    9x21
    Case length 21.15 mm (0.833 in)

  4. #4
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    I shot 9X21 in the late 80's. Back when we were playing the IPSC game. We would load a little TO warm and make major power factor with a 158 gr. plated bullet. V 3N37 was the powder. Worked well for the times in a Comped CZ 75.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMG View Post
    Does anyone load for 9X21?
    What you are wondering. COL matters more than case length. In a short mag auto the 9x21 is just a 9x19+P. In a longer mag auto the 9x21 is a rimless 38 super. No I don't load 9x21 but I do load 9x19 and 9x23 and 9x23 in a 9x25 mag. One other variable is the thickness of the web in the case head, the support for the case head in the chamber and the pressure you are running. The pistol matters as much as the cartridge.

    Tim
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    Other than the .38 acp having a semi rim, is there any big difference between a .38 ACP standard loadings vs a 9x21

    Google says: 38ACP
    Case length .900 in (22.9 mm)

    9x21
    Case length 21.15 mm (0.833 in)
    I have fired 38 ACP in 9mm largo guns.

  7. #7
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    .38 ACP in 9mm Largo pistols is perfectly acceptable, and many of them were stamped 9mm/.38. However, do not shoot .38 Super in 9mm Largo pistols. Finding .38 ACP now days can be difficult.

    Here's a 1950's vintage Llama with the slide stamped Cal. 9mm/38 and the broken barrel link resulting from the previous owner shooting .38 Super in it. Sorry about the quality of the photos.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    DG

  8. #8
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    My supply of reliable 9mm Largo is dwindling !!! I shoot an Astra Machine pistol Model F. I shoots a slow 300 rounds per minute with a shoulder stock. Also have a couple of STAR Model B's in 9 Largo. Tried to shoot my 38 Super reduced cast boolit reloads that shoot well in a Colt 1902. They are a bit to large for the Astra and STAR pistols. Hate to have to buy more brass in 9x21 Largo. Plus another die set up. Thought it might be easier to hand ream the chambers on the STAR and Astra pistols????? The old Spanish military surplus 9 mm Largo has mercuric primers that are becoming dead. Sometimes out of the box you may get a couple of duds. I believe Starline makes the brass. Should be easy with carbide dies to load the stuff. My Lee 6-cavity really cranks out the 150gr lead 38 cal round nose wheel weight boolits. I size them to .358 cause of my old worn barrels.
    Last edited by Rockindaddy; 04-30-2023 at 06:36 PM. Reason: photo

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockindaddy View Post
    My supply of reliable 9mm Largo is dwindling !!! I shoot an Astra Machine pistol Model F. I shoots a slow 300 rounds per minute with a shoulder stock. Also have a couple of STAR Model B's in 9 Largo. Tried to shoot my 38 Super reduced cast boolit reloads that shoot well in a Colt 1902. They are a bit to large for the Astra and STAR pistols. Hate to have to buy more brass in 9x21 Largo. Plus another die set up. Thought it might be easier to hand ream the chambers on the STAR and Astra pistols????? The old Spanish military surplus 9 mm Largo has mercuric primers that are becoming dead. Sometimes out of the box you may get a couple of duds. I believe Starline makes the brass. Should be easy with carbide dies to load the stuff. My Lee 6-cavity really cranks out the 150gr lead 38 cal round nose wheel weight boolits. I size them to .358 cause of my old worn barrels.
    9mm Largo is a 9x23 not a 9x21. Yes, Starline has made 9mm Largo brass. It can be loaded with 9x19 (Luger/Parabellum) dies or 38 ACP or 38 Super dies. With the 9x19 dies you just have to adjust the length appropriately.
    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    9mm Largo is a 9x23 not a 9x21. Yes, Starline has made 9mm Largo brass. It can be loaded with 9x19 (Luger/Parabellum) dies or 38 ACP or 38 Super dies. With the 9x19 dies you just have to adjust the length appropriately.
    Tim
    The 38 Super is a straight wall cartridge .385 at the base and .385 at the mouth. The 9x19 is tapered. Although you may be able to load the 9mm Largo with those two dies it best to buy the appropiate dies and load it the way it was intended. Some people will tell you that they use 38 Super brass in their 9mm Largos. I have a Star Super Modelo in 9mm Largo and believe me 38 Super brass won't work correctly in my pistol. I had to buy the Largo brass from Starline.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I use .38 Super dies and .38 Super brass to load .38 ACP (but, of course, not .38 Super data). The .38 ACP rounds work in my Astra 400 (9mm Largo). What gun, specifically, uses 9x21?

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    There's data for 9x21mm in the 50th Ed'n. of Lyman's, though they use a universal receiver with a 5" barrel to obtain their data. Obtained ballistics approach .38 Super "Major" levels. Although, with a 5" stationary barrel and a universal receiver, that's not as much of a problem as it is with actual sidearms.
    Last edited by Kosh75287; 04-30-2023 at 11:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battis View Post
    I use .38 Super dies and .38 Super brass to load .38 ACP (but, of course, not .38 Super data). The .38 ACP rounds work in my Astra 400 (9mm Largo). What gun, specifically, uses 9x21?
    Italy developed the round and the Israeli's kind of adopted it. Mainly it's used or was used in the USPSA/IPSC because it makes more power and being same diameter as the 9x19 you can still get many in a double stack magazine.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    I was wondering if the OP had a specific gun he was loading for.

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    I long ago converted my Chinese Tokarev to 9x23 which it will also shoot the 38 Super "Rimless".
    Last edited by TD1886; 05-01-2023 at 04:45 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TD1886 View Post
    I long ago converted my Chinese Tokarev to 9x23 which it will also shoot the 38 Super "Rimless".
    Yeah, I converted a CZ-52 to 9x23. The magazine will not take rimmed 38 super but works fine if you turn the rims down. Did that for a while and then bought 9x23 brass.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Yeah, I converted a CZ-52 to 9x23. The magazine will not take rimmed 38 super but works fine if you turn the rims down. Did that for a while and then bought 9x23 brass.

    Tim
    Keep your eye on the slide where the rollers lock into it for cracks. The CZ52 isn't as strong as the Tokarevs and they crack there and the 9x23 and 38 Super are hotter rounds then the 9mm Luger.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    .38 ACP in 9mm Largo pistols is perfectly acceptable, and many of them were stamped 9mm/.38. However, do not shoot .38 Super in 9mm Largo pistols. Finding .38 ACP now days can be difficult.

    Here's a 1950's vintage Llama with the slide stamped Cal. 9mm/38 and the broken barrel link resulting from the previous owner shooting .38 Super in it. Sorry about the quality of the photos.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    DG
    I have to check the model again, but one of my former spanish pistols in 9mm largo had a barrel with a recoil linkage without a swinging link and is more like the browning hipower. Still not a good idea to shoot a lot of .38 super in it. I had to file a little to get it to accept the semi-rim of the .38 ACP round.
    Photo of what the linkage looks like from a star modelo super.
    It always give me a bad case of hammer bite.
    The take down included a swinging lever.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is a little more on:
    Super A

    From 1946 onward, Star produced a Super version of the model A pistol. Besides the improvements from the model 1940, this as usual consisted of a number of upgrades to the weapon. Mostly the swinging link was replaced with a Sig 210 (or modern Star) style closed cam path integral to the barrel. Related to this, a full-length guide rod with captive spring, and a quick takedown lever were added as well. All of these models have a magazine safety, but one different from the previous S variants, and the extractor is modified to double as a loaded-chamber indicator. Additionally, the sights are improved in shape to make them easier to see, and minor changes were made to the trigger system. These were also apparently exported for extensive foreign military use.
    Model Super A

    Most Super pistols, of all series, were not labeled with the overall series letter. This has caused no end of confusion, and a number of guns are now sold at surplus as the Modelo Super, or even as model Bs, that are actually model As.

    As there are aftermarket barrels available to allow firing of 9 mm Luger/Parabellum ammunition in Largo (model A) pistols, caliber is no longer a completely sure way to identify Super marked pistols. Use care when trying to ID these pistols.



    Model AS – Cal 38

    A small number — reportedly 60 — model AS pistols were marked "Cal 38" on the side and barrel hood. Per the importer, this indicates they are able to safely chamber and fire .38 Super ammunition. It is unclear if this is the primary chambering, or they are simply upgraded 9 mm Largo dimensioned chambers able to handle the extra pressure.
    http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/a/

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Yeah, I converted a CZ-52 to 9x23. The magazine will not take rimmed 38 super but works fine if you turn the rims down. Did that for a while and then bought 9x23 brass.

    Tim
    Quote Originally Posted by TD1886 View Post
    Keep your eye on the slide where the rollers lock into it for cracks. The CZ52 isn't as strong as the Tokarevs and they crack there and the 9x23 and 38 Super are hotter rounds then the 9mm Luger.
    There is a fellow by the name of clark that did all sorts overloads in CZ52 and T33 Tokarev pistols. The T33 was the stronger pistol. CZ52 has all sorts of problems with it. It breaks firing pins and the hammer drop system is said to be unsafe.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Yeah, I converted a CZ-52 to 9x23. The magazine will not take rimmed 38 super but works fine if you turn the rims down. Did that for a while and then bought 9x23 brass.

    Tim


    There is a fellow by the name of clark that did all sorts overloads in CZ52 and T33 Tokarev pistols. The T33 was the stronger pistol. CZ52 has all sorts of problems with it. It breaks firing pins and the hammer drop system is said to be unsafe.
    I have had three CZ52's and I still have two and an extra slide. I have barrels in 9x19, 9x23, and 7.62x25. I have three strengths of recoil springs. I have spare rollers and firing pins. I have fired a lot of hot 38 super level loads. I did break one firing pin. I have tested the hammer drop on all three guns and they all function properly, but I don't rely on it. I only use it to drop the hammer on an empty chamber.
    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check