First Post, 44 mag die selection

[cookieman8]

Hello everyone, first time here at cast boolits so I'm excited to learn!

I purchased a rossi 92 in 44mag and I'm wanting to load some 240 xtp (for magnum loads) and some cast 200-240 gr powder coated cast (for medium/light plinking loads) for it. After finding out the bore of these rossi's are a bit oversized as most rifle 44 magnums, I plan on getting some cast bullets at .001-.002 over bore size as that has been recommended. I will measure when the rifle arrives.

My main question is about the dies to use. I have a Lee 4 die set for 9mm and it works just fine so I planned on getting that for the 44 mag. Until I read about the factory crimp die possibly swaging the oversized cast bullets smaller than the intended size. Now, as for the 240 xtp bullets, that does not seem to be an issue so the the FCD will more than likely be fine to use for them. I also found the Lee crimp die that utilizes the "collet" like the rifle dies. Should I also purchase the collet die for the use of crimping the cast ? In short, FCD for the jacketed xtp, and the collet crimp for the cast?

Thanks for any help reguarding this and I look forward to learning from the forum!

[oley55]

welcome to the forum, this place is great!

Obviously you have been reading enough to realize there are two different types of Lee Factory crimp dies. In my opinion the regular Lee factory crimp die with the carbide ring is to smooth out the bulge that a roll crimp can make. Roll crimping is case length sensitive, so a slightly longer case sneaking in there could get bulged. If you use the collet style, you will never encounter the bulge.

The collet style works perfectly for both cast and jacketed. My suggestion is to put the carbide factory crimp die in a drawer and forget about it.

[oley55]

As for your Rossi R92. I have one I bought new about 9-10 years ago, SS 24" barrel and it is so large that an appropriately sized bullet (.434") loaded in brass will not pass between the load gates. Be warned you have to nearly disassemble the whole gun to get those rounds out of there. Just something to be aware of when you get into yours.

On the other hand my R92 in 357, 24" case hardened/blued has a great barrel (.3573"). After some TLC and fire lapping plus a Marples tang site I mange 1.5"-2" five shot groups at 100 yards. I got it first and that's why I got the 44mag. Luck of the draw I guess.

I have been using .431" 240gr soft nose jacketed bullets I got from Everglades Ammo. https://www.evergladesammo.com/bulle...t-bullets.html

edit: rather than 9-10 years, should be 6 years ago Feb. 2016.

[725]

Welcome aboard. Lee dies are fine. oley55 is right; if you roll crimp, make sure your brass has been trimmed to a uniform length. I use both the roll crimp and taper crimp depending on a variety of conditions. I've never had an issue with "swagging" the boolit down to induce leading or other performance issues. YMMV ( but I doubt it ). Follow your manual and have some fun.

[cookieman8]

Thanks for the input guys! I will look into Everglades. I have heard great things about there bullets. Sounds like the collet type crimp will be a valuable piece over the FCD. One last question reguarding the crimp, can I just simply remove the seating stem and crimp seperate with the seating die thats in the lee 4 die kit? I do this with my 9mm dies but they apply a taper crimp.

[oley55]

Thanks for the input guys! I will look into Everglades. I have heard great things about there bullets. Sounds like the collet type crimp will be a valuable piece over the FCD. One last question reguarding the crimp, can I just simply remove the seating stem and crimp seperate with the seating die thats in the lee 4 die kit? I do this with my 9mm dies but they apply a taper crimp.

If I am following your question, yes you can always use your combination seating/crimping die for separate functions, but having a dedicated seating die and dedicated crimp die cuts down on adjustment time and helps your round to round consistency.

Concerning die kits, keep in mind the brass case/mouth will be expanded/belled differently for your jacketed and cast bullets. The generic expander and/or powder through expanders should work just fine for you jacketed bullets. Your cast bullets will require more case expansion/belling. So you will be needing a separate expander for your cast bullets.

I find the bullet sizers and case expanders from NOE molds to be great for cast boolits. Once you have the required die bodies, changing sizes only requires a different bushing or sizer which are fairly inexpensive. His case expanders use or fit into the Lee Universal Case Expander. His bullet sizing bushing go with his own die bodies. Fingering out what you need and understanding what the case expander size/numbers mean can be a bit confusing. There is a forum off his site that helps and there is one guys who does excellent youtube videos about the NOE case/bullet tools. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9waFJCbrt0

I apologize for throwing too much stuff at you, but more digging and looking could save you time n money from buying/waiting for stuff that ends up not meeting your needs. At this point, buying anything specific to cast boolits is probably a waste until you have slugged your knew rifle. So get what you need for loading jacketed but with consideration for cast boolits.

[jetinteriorguy]

Thanks for the input guys! I will look into Everglades. I have heard great things about there bullets. Sounds like the collet type crimp will be a valuable piece over the FCD. One last question reguarding the crimp, can I just simply remove the seating stem and crimp seperate with the seating die thats in the lee 4 die kit? I do this with my 9mm dies but they apply a taper crimp.

You don’t necessarily have to remove the seating stem, just back it out far enough so it doesn’t contact the bullet. As for the collet crimp die, it’s a winner, it’s all I use on my .357mag and .41mag. I do sort and trim my brass to within +/-.003” for a consistent crimp. The collet die does have a higher tolerance for case length variations than this but it’s just something I do once and it’s never needed again. Any cases too short I just relegate to lighter loads where the crimp isn’t as crucial.

[cookieman8]

Okay I am definitely catching on for sure guys. This is awesome information! Has anyone had problems with the collet style crimp die and the oversized cast bullets? I read a thread where it's possible that the collet will shave the lead of an oversized bullet, say a .433-.434 may be to big to pass through the collet without needing to be modified.

[Three44s]

The Lee Factory Carbide Crimp Die can certainly post resize your fatter boolits you are anticipating using and defeat your best efforts.

I use that die but also have the Redding Profile crimp die.

My die set in .44 is the carbide in RCBS. Works well.

My set in 41 mag is the Redding Carbide. Sweet!

I run plenty of Lee dies. My biggest criticism is their die bodies are fairly short. On a press with a “thick head” you can get a bit challenged getting them set to your satisfaction and having a lock ring. You may get past that by setting the lock ring on the underside of the press head.

Three44s

[mdi]

The 44 Magnum was my most reloaded cartridge for over 25 years. I used the post crimp sizing die, aka FCD, once (It now resides in a landfill somewhere in So, Oregon). I would put the FCD in a drawer somewhere and use a profile crimp die from Redding or a collet crimp die from Lee. I have used both on hundreds of 44 Magnum cast bullet loads, all using the crimp groove, and have had zero problems. When I first started I used a plain seat/crimp die and seated and crimped separately (back off crimping function, seat all bullets, back off seating stem, readjust crimping, crimp all). That worked OK but labor intensive and slow, and I soon bought another seat/crimp die adjusted for crimp only. In all the roll crimps I installed, case length variations made no discernable difference in accuracy or velocity in my 5, 44 Magnum guns (3 revolvers, one Contender, one Puma).

FWIW; SAAMI specs for 44 Magnum barrels id .431" groove diameter vs. .429" for handguns. My Puma is .432"...

[cookieman8]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I ended up ordering the lee 4 die kit, the lee collet crimp, and the universal expander with the intent to use NOE expanding mandrels for the cast. I believe that will get me there!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Roll crimp is usually for Revolver Cartridges and Taper are for Auto...

99% of the time.

Might want to look at a few Vids to get some ideas on getting a good roll crimp!

[Tripplebeards]

I like the lee collect factory crimp die. The second go around for me with cast boolits was in my 44 mag 77/44 rifle. I had on average 4” groups at 100 yards with 2” being my best. I switched over to the lee Crimp die and shot sub MOA with a few of the same loads. Helps with a consistent and even seal around the boolit and kneck.
Here is an example of it…



Dies are around $17/$19 last I checked. Best investment for cast boolits if your trying to get good accuracy out of a rifle at longer distances. Pistols at 25 yards imo it doesn’t make a difference in crimp styles.

It’s $15.98 from lee. Might be the same one in a 4 die kit? If not make sure to order one…

https://leeprecision.com/44-magnum-c...crimp-die.html

I haven’t worked much with my 77/44 lately. After jumping up to a 35 Rem and another 400 fps I have left it to the side. The 35 Rem kills deer lighting fast compared to my 44 mag!

[cookieman8]

Triplebeards, yes that is the collet crimp die I ordered as well. The lee 4 die kit comes with their factory roll crimp die for revolvers in 44 mag that also has the sizing ring. I will experiment with it but I believe the collet die will be, as you said, better for the oversized cast bullets. Thank you!

[wilecoyote]

just in case, some interesting FCD tips from rob42049, below here:

https://www.marlinowners.com/threads...2#post-8639837

(tried, it worked for me, thank again to R.)
if needed, even better explained elsewhere in MO by the same MO Member:

[cookieman8]

Very nice suggestions made by Rob. I have seen that suggested (knocking out the carbide ring in the factory crimp die) multiple times across the platforms. Definitely something I'll be looking forward to testing. Thank you coyote for the read!

[wilecoyote]

thanks to you for your attention.
maybe it's not exclusive to him, I don't know, but it was there that the first time I learned it by reading his posts

[fn1889m]

I use that die but also have the Redding Profile crimp die.

My die set in .44 is the carbide in RCBS. Works well.

Three44s

I have a Rossi 44 magnum, stainless 92. Mine is the current production model.
I found that 44 special with the Keith semi wadcutter feeds fine. I also use the RCBS carbide dies, and crimp with the Redding profile crimp die. What I like about the Redding is that it runs from almost a taper crimp to a deep roll cramp, depending on how it is set.

I haven’t had any problem with the Keith semi wadcutter @.430 and 7.5 gn of Unique. Nor have I had any feeding problems with .44 special in the Keith SWC. But I’m only shooting at 50 yards with open sights, minute of steel plate.

[cookieman8]

Gentlemen I have an update for everyone. I finally recieved the rossi 44 and got to slug the bore. My bore slugged at a whopping .433" ! I did purchase some 240 xtps to try. Looks like I need to find a .432-.433" cast bullet and powder coat to bump up the diameter a smidge?

[oley55]

Gentlemen I have an update for everyone. I finally recieved the rossi 44 and got to slug the bore. My bore slugged at a whopping .433" ! I did purchase some 240 xtps to try. Looks like I need to find a .432-.433" cast bullet and powder coat to bump up the diameter a smidge?

Perhaps this thread under "Leverguns" will be helpful in regards to cast boolits n sizing for .434" boolits. It remains a work in progress...
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...urement-needed

For what it's worth, unless you are already into casting boolits, I'd suggest concentrating on reloading jacketed for a while. In reality, correctly reloading cast boolits is way more challenging, IMO.