New BP Loader

[John in PA]

I have been loading and shooting .45-70 loads made according to Spence Wolf's recipe since the mid 1980's. Follow his recipe and procedures exactly and you will duplicate his results. I spoke with Spence and his wife Pat quite a few times on the phone back in the day. You have to remember that Spence's goal was to duplicate the accuracy and performance of Frankford Arsenal service ammunition, NOT to find the ultimate match accuracy load for a single individual gun. The key features are powder compression to the depth that the bullet will seat so that the bullet is not deformed in loading. Seat and crimp in separate operations. Model 1881 500 gr bullet, with deep square lube grooves to hold plenty of lube (50-50 olive oil and beeswax was Spence's recipe and it works just fine. 1-20 tin-lead bullet. NO ANTIMONY, as this bullet design must remain plastic (deformable) to function as it should. Your Swiss is cleaner burning and maybe 10% more energetic than GOEX. Follow Spence's directions anyhow. It may shoot slightly higher at long range (say 200 yd plus) but you just tweak the sight slightly to compensate.
Shooting these loads is really a treat. With a blow tube to keep fouling moist, you'll be able to shoot till your shoulder is sore with no deterioration in accuracy from the Old Warrior. Get an original sight hood and a cast detachable pistol grip from S&S Firearms in New York, and it will feel like a nice offhand military match rifle.

[Chief TC]

I am curious about your statement that you want to make the Buffington sight "usefull". How far are you shooting? The problem I had with the Buffington is it starts at 200 yards.
I have an 1874 with the original sight and an 1888 with the Buffington. I find myself shooting the older gun the most. I use the 55grain carbine load. I can ring steel from 50 to 300 yards. That is about as far as this old guy can do.
I have a taller sight for the "new" gun. I need to fit it and get it blued. I am then going to figure out how to shoot the Buffington at the same distance range.
I am looking forward to seeing your results.

What I mean by useful is to use the buffington sights as designed. So you need the M1882 cartridge specs to use them as designed. I did use them with adjustment using the 405gr as Wolf wrote in his book and it was alright but the amount of holding low and adjustment is significant. but hoping to develop the load that truly makes the sight useful. I will definitely give updates as soon as I start developing loads which will still be several weeks. Thanks for relaying your experiences.

[Chief TC]

I have been loading and shooting .45-70 loads made according to Spence Wolf's recipe since the mid 1980's. Follow his recipe and procedures exactly and you will duplicate his results. I spoke with Spence and his wife Pat quite a few times on the phone back in the day. You have to remember that Spence's goal was to duplicate the accuracy and performance of Frankford Arsenal service ammunition, NOT to find the ultimate match accuracy load for a single individual gun. The key features are powder compression to the depth that the bullet will seat so that the bullet is not deformed in loading. Seat and crimp in separate operations. Model 1881 500 gr bullet, with deep square lube grooves to hold plenty of lube (50-50 olive oil and beeswax was Spence's recipe and it works just fine. 1-20 tin-lead bullet. NO ANTIMONY, as this bullet design must remain plastic (deformable) to function as it should. Your Swiss is cleaner burning and maybe 10% more energetic than GOEX. Follow Spence's directions anyhow. It may shoot slightly higher at long range (say 200 yd plus) but you just tweak the sight slightly to compensate.
Shooting these loads is really a treat. With a blow tube to keep fouling moist, you'll be able to shoot till your shoulder is sore with no deterioration in accuracy from the Old Warrior. Get an original sight hood and a cast detachable pistol grip from S&S Firearms in New York, and it will feel like a nice offhand military match rifle.

Understood on all accounts John. I really appreciate your thorough explanation of Wolf’s directions and your experiences. I’m excited to duplicate Spence’s loads and try a few different things as well to understand this BP game. We have a group in Bend, OR that do military single shot and buffalo competitions BPCR rules. I have not had an opportunity until now to get started and eventually compete in these events. Again, many thanks. Tom.

[BLAHUT]

Ol depends on bulet design > what ever you chose, you want to start with just kissing the rifleing, just able to close action with out forcing> forcing bullet into rifeling rases pressure<< afte you have a load you think will work then you can try pushing bullet into rifleing a touch and see what happend to accuracy, some times improves sometimes not< and m-tecs i am deaf, so i shout, get over it.. I don't use real black.. Blackhorn 209 and i shop at track of the wolf

[Gobeyond]

Ol depends on bulet design > what ever you chose, you want to start with just kissing the rifleing, just able to close action with out forcing> forcing bullet into rifeling rases pressure<< afte you have a load you think will work then you can try pushing bullet into rifleing a touch and see what happend to accuracy, some times improves sometimes not< and m-tecs i am deaf, so i shout, get over it.. I don't use real black.. Blackhorn 209 and i shop at track of the wolf

Dont ya spoked to be consistent? I’d get a boolit I could size but 1-2 thousandrhs over bore till you find out if it works or not. Then I’d fill up the case and work down to my load for that bullet. Doesbullet depth really mean that much?

[Castaway]

On an adjacent thread there’s a question about getting 70 grains of powder in a 45-70 case. Yes you can and I’ve done up to 80 with a drop tube. 70 grains of performance in 1873 isn’t the same as 70 grains in 2022. As stated by many, cases today don’t hold as much. You probably would come closer to duplicating original loads with closer to 68 grain loads. Not to quibble about two grains though, it’s close to being a non-issue. Different cases have different capacities so there’s no absolute answer. Best advice is to determine over-all length and fill case to bottom of bullet. Shoot and measure. Add two grains, keeping same setting on your compression die and shoot and measure again. Repeat in 2 grain increments until you find the sweet spot

[Chief TC]

On an adjacent thread there’s a question about getting 70 grains of powder in a 45-70 case. Yes you can and I’ve done up to 80 with a drop tube. 70 grains of performance in 1873 isn’t the same as 70 grains in 2022. As stated by many, cases today don’t hold as much. You probably would come closer to duplicating original loads with closer to 68 grain loads. Not to quibble about two grains though, it’s close to being a non-issue. Different cases have different capacities so there’s no absolute answer. Best advice is to determine over-all length and fill case to bottom of bullet. Shoot and measure. Add two grains, keeping same setting on your compression die and shoot and measure again. Repeat in 2 grain increments until you find the sweet spot

Thanks Castaway - great advice, totally makes sense to me.

[BLAHUT]

I load 10 with each change and keep track of what happens on target. if run over a coronagraph lets you know of changes + or - to compare with on target.

[Castaway]

Not mentioned but make sure you use a lube for black powder and I’ve found a cardboard wad under the bullet helps with accuracy. If you want to get fancy, cardboard wad on powder, newspaper wad on top of cardboard

[Chief TC]

Hello everyone. Well, I finally got all the components and loaded my first rounds yesterday. It seems all went well in the process except I noticed when I went to seat the bullet, it easily was pushed in and I did not need to use the bullet seating die. It taper crimped just fine but the bullet is definitely not tight against the walls as you can turn them a little. I'm using .459 bullets and used a .459 expander for my Lee dies. Was I supposed to use a .458 expander? what will be the likely result in bullets not tight against the neck wall? Just not as accurate? Thanks

[Castaway]

Chief, that’s not an issue if the bullet turns in the case. Loading black powder is the same as smokeless but different. This is one of the differences. Just make sure your overall length (OAL) is sufficient to allow the bullet to be no more than a 1/10th of an inch from bumping the rifling. This keeps the powder/bullet gap at an acceptable level. If your OAL is even with the rifling, fouling will interfere with chambering on follow-on rounds. You’ll still need to wipe or blow tube though. Back to the “different”, if shooting slow powders like H110, a heavy crimp and heavy bullets are needed for consistent ignition. Black powder is quick enough it doesn’t need the crimp to build pressure.

[gunther]

Buffington's have a reputation for being fragile. Lube with Kroil or P Blaster., and be careful with it. Put a 1/8 inch taller front sight on the gun. They are pinned, so it is an easy job. You might also try a charge of about 50-55 grains of black powder and a wimpy little pure lead maxiball. They weigh about 250 grains and have two huge lube grooves. You can shoot this load all afternoon instead of 8 or 10 times and on to something else.

[Alferd Packer]

You may need to run those new cases thru a sizing die , then a flaring die to accept bullet seating.
Common mistake to use brand new cases and find the bullets are a loose fit without sizing or at least neck sizing the cases.
Also providing the bullets are sized correctly.
This will correct for loose fitting bullets,.

[Chief TC]

Chief, that’s not an issue if the bullet turns in the case. Loading black powder is the same as smokeless but different. This is one of the differences. Just make sure your overall length (OAL) is sufficient to allow the bullet to be no more than a 1/10th of an inch from bumping the rifling. This keeps the powder/bullet gap at an acceptable level. If your OAL is even with the rifling, fouling will interfere with chambering on follow-on rounds. You’ll still need to wipe or blow tube though. Back to the “different”, if shooting slow powders like H110, a heavy crimp and heavy bullets are needed for consistent ignition. Black powder is quick enough it doesn’t need the crimp to build pressure.

Understood. Thanks again Castaway.

[Castaway]

Chief, I should be more specific. My comments on then”loose” bullet applies to single shot rifles. If loading for a magazine or tube fed rifle, crimping is necessary

[Chief TC]

Chief, I should be more specific. My comments on then”loose” bullet applies to single shot rifles. If loading for a magazine or tube fed rifle, crimping is necessary

Thanks. I do understand what you meant about single shot crimping. But I definitely needed to do a taper cramp on these because the neck walls are just not tight enough around the bullet, and the bullet would move around even though it’s seated on top of the powder charge correctly. I am surprise using the 459 expander die creates this much room for the bullet to go in.

[Castaway]

Eliminate the expander die, another of the differences. Fire, deprime, clean, prime, charge, compress, thumb seat. Don’t size, don’t flare neck. Cases will be fire formed to your chamber

[Chief TC]

Eliminate the expander die, another of the differences. Fire, deprime, clean, prime, charge, compress, thumb seat. Don’t size, don’t flare neck. Cases will be fire formed to your chamber

Copy that. Thanks!

[Chief TC]

I finally was able to shoot the loads I developed and thought I would share the results. For my 1888 TD, I used 65gr of 1.5 Swiss with 500gr bullet. I made loads that had wads and no wads. The loads without wads performed better. With wads, they were too high and didn't group as well. I had some problems chambering some loads and I determined I crimped some too aggressively and bulged the case mouth.

For my 1874 Sharps, I used 68gr 1.5 Swiss and 520gr bullet. I loaded all with wads and 1/2 crimped and 1/2 uncrimped. The uncrimped performed better.

It was a fun first outing with BP. Lots to learn and try. Thanks to everyone for all the advice to get me started.

[Chief TC]

Oh I wanted to share too about cleaning my BP rifles. I used ballistol emulsion and found it to be very effective and thorough and quick. Cleaning out BP creates more "mud" than smokeless but I found the cleaning process was about the same, just different solution.