New BP Loader

[Chief TC]

Hello everyone. Just about to reload BP for the first time for my M1888 TD after reading Wolf's book. I have tried to read as much as possible here in these forums as well to have a thorough understanding how to do load development. Of course, it seems no matter how much we read, we still have questions, so thanks in advance to all who are kind enough to reply.

I'll be starting with the M1882 cartridge since my rifle and the Buffington sights were designed for this load and then I'll try them in my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps too. Wolf calls for GOEX 2F but I was only able to find Swiss 1.5. I read several threads about how many grains folks work up and is anywhere from 60-81 gr. And I read some use wads and some do not. I know that one needs to start somewhere and then adjust to see what works best.

My question is where do I start with grains and compression for the Swiss 1.5. If i had the GOEX 2F I would just do exactly as Wolf directs - 70 gr and compress the powder based on the proper bullet seating and crimp. Bullet base is directly on top of powder. Is starting with 70 gr of 1.5 a good place to start and how many loads do you all do up to test and evaluate the load? Many thanks.

[Malheur]

Greetings, Blackpowder is efficient, but not that efficient to notice a difference between say 68 grains and 68.5 grains for example. I start loading by volume; fill the prepared case from a “long” drop tube with say 2FFg to where the base of the bullet will just touch the card wad or compressed powder when seated. In my experience, black powder likes a bit of compression to shoot most accurately. If you want a smaller charge, experiment with case fillers that will keep the powder in the case compressed. Usually by following this method I realize an accurate load quickly.

[BLAHUT]

I GAVE UP ON BLACK AVABILITY LOT NUMBERS I WENT TO BLACKHORN209 I STARTED WITH 1/2 OF LOAD 45/70 SO I STARTED WITH 35 grs AND SEEN WHAT THE LOAD DID? NO AIR SPACE IN LOAD, USED CORK, PAPER AND A PLASTIC PUNCHED CARD WADS WITH A SLIGHT COMPRESSION TO FILL AIR SPACE, I PUT A PAPER CARD WAD ON TOP OF POWDER UNDER BULLET, ALL WAYS, WITH THE CORECT POWDER COLLOM THIS GIVES ME A SURFACE TO COMPRESS WITH, PROTECTS THE BULLET FLAT BASE, THE PLASIIC WAD ACTS LIKE A CLEANER ROUND< I USE A COMPERSSION DIE, NOT THE BULLET> I WAS TRYING TO GET TO 1200fps OR A TAD LESS> DID THE SAME WITH MY 45/60 LOAD>> THE 1200 fps GAVE ME A STARTING POINT? NOW WHEN I CHANGE LOT NUMBERS, I CAN ADJUST EASILY> MY LOAD WAS DEVELOPED WITH A 500 gr BULLET IN PURE LEAD FOR LONG RANGE COMPITITION, ENDED UP MAKING MY OWN LUBE, NONE ON MARKET DID WHAT I WANTED> THIS 500 gr AND A LOAD OF 42 grs BLACKHORN 209, AT 1200fps, IN MY ROLER WILL HOLD THE X RING AT A 1000 yds/meters EASLY, IF I DO MY PART??

[Gunlaker]

I would start with just a hair over zero compression with Swiss. Then work up a grain at a time to see what your rifle likes.

I've had Swiss 1.5 work well with basically no compression right up to around 0.3". The powder lots I've been using for the last couple of years seemed to like a fair bit, but there is no one who can tell you better than your rifle will

Chris.

[Chief TC]

Understood on all replies thus far. Many thanks everyone

[FrankJD]

This is a greaser load, I'd gather? Have you ascertained the cartridge jam OAL for the bullet you'll be using, and created a dummy cartridge at or just shy of the rifling lands? Knowing that seating depth will dictate the volume left for powder. The volume can be converted to weight. Drop fill (compact) the test weight into the case - a bit more powder will probably be required as compacting during the drop fill decreases the powder volume. Push in a wad into the case mouth, set the compression die to compress the wad/powder to the cartridge OAL, seat the freedom seed. If need be, slightly taper crimp. Increasing the powder weight 2 grains at a time will increase the compression as long as the compression die is left as is. Then the load development begins, with possible adjustments to powder type and weight, compression, wad thickness and type, bullet and bullet seat depth, bullet lube, primer, case, etc etc etc. The fun never ends.

[Chief TC]

Not familiar with the term greaser load. The 1882 bullet is specific to the 1884 and 1888 trapdoor with specific measurements for cartridge length, bullet seat .56 and crimp for 500gr bullet for a 2.80 to 2.82 OAL. Since it is so specific and for this model rifle, I would think that varying bullet seating would not be advisable for a variety of reasons. Understood and thanks on how to do further load development.

[M-Tecs]

Not familiar with the term greaser load. The 1882 bullet is specific to the 1884 and 1888 trapdoor with specific measurements for cartridge length, bullet seat .56 and crimp for 500gr bullet for a 2.80 to 2.82 OAL. Since it is so specific and for this model rifle, I would think that varying bullet seating would not be advisable for a variety of reasons. Understood and thanks on how to do further load development.

A greaser load is a bullet with lube grooves and using lube verse a paper patch load.

[M-Tecs]

I GAVE UP ON BLACK AVABILITY LOT NUMBERS I WENT TO BLACKHORN209 I STARTED WITH 1/2 OF LOAD 45/70 SO I STARTED WITH 35 grs AND SEEN WHAT THE LOAD DID? NO AIR SPACE IN LOAD, USED CORK, PAPER AND A PLASTIC PUNCHED CARD WADS WITH A SLIGHT COMPRESSION TO FILL AIR SPACE, I PUT A PAPER CARD WAD ON TOP OF POWDER UNDER BULLET, ALL WAYS, WITH THE CORECT POWDER COLLOM THIS GIVES ME A SURFACE TO COMPRESS WITH, PROTECTS THE BULLET FLAT BASE, THE PLASIIC WAD ACTS LIKE A CLEANER ROUND< I USE A COMPERSSION DIE, NOT THE BULLET> I WAS TRYING TO GET TO 1200fps OR A TAD LESS> DID THE SAME WITH MY 45/60 LOAD>> THE 1200 fps GAVE ME A STARTING POINT? NOW WHEN I CHANGE LOT NUMBERS, I CAN ADJUST EASILY> MY LOAD WAS DEVELOPED WITH A 500 gr BULLET IN PURE LEAD FOR LONG RANGE COMPITITION, ENDED UP MAKING MY OWN LUBE, NONE ON MARKET DID WHAT I WANTED> THIS 500 gr AND A LOAD OF 42 grs BLACKHORN 209, AT 1200fps, IN MY ROLER WILL HOLD THE X RING AT A 1000 yds/meters EASLY, IF I DO MY PART??

All caps are hard to read and it's considered too be shouting.

Since you live in Mpls Track of the Wolf is a great source for real BP.

[Chief TC]

Ahhhh. Copy that. Thanks for the explanation. I hadn’t seen this term used in the threads I have been reading.

[FrankJD]

Not familiar with the term greaser load. The 1882 bullet is specific to the 1884 and 1888 trapdoor with specific measurements for cartridge length, bullet seat .56 and crimp for 500gr bullet for a 2.80 to 2.82 OAL. Since it is so specific and for this model rifle, I would think that varying bullet seating would not be advisable for a variety of reasons. Understood and thanks on how to do further load development.

Specs is one thing, and the actual uniqueness of each rifle, its chamber, the rounds created and their chamber fit thereof, are yet others.

[Don McDowell]

Start with 65 grains of the Swiss, with a .030 fiber wad under the bullet. don't drill the flash holes

[Chief TC]

Specs is one thing, and the actual uniqueness of each rifle, its chamber, the rounds created and their chamber fit thereof, are yet others.

Understood Frank. This will be an adventure. Looking forward to getting into this.

[Chief TC]

Start with 65 grains of the Swiss, with a .030 fiber wad under the bullet. don't drill the flash holes

Thanks Don. I appreciate the specific direction and will certainly try this. How many loads do you recommend I work up and test as I figure out best load?

[Don McDowell]

It's hard to say how many you'll need to try before the rifle and the target are happy, but start at 65 and work up 1 or 2 grains at a time from there. The biggest problem with getting the trapdoor to make super accurate loads is the fouling control, and the variation some of those old gals have in bore and groove diameter, be mindful also of the barrel twist. It will either be 20 or 22, most likely a 20, which will limit your bullet length to the 500 grain bullets. 405 will work well, but might not shoot worth a flip in your Pedersoli.

[Chief TC]

It's hard to say how many you'll need to try before the rifle and the target are happy, but start at 65 and work up 1 or 2 grains at a time from there. The biggest problem with getting the trapdoor to make super accurate loads is the fouling control, and the variation some of those old gals have in bore and groove diameter, be mindful also of the barrel twist. It will either be 20 or 22, most likely a 20, which will limit your bullet length to the 500 grain bullets. 405 will work well, but might not shoot worth a flip in your Pedersoli.

Understood and this is great info. Thank you. Basically, I’m chasing the load that makes the buffington sight actually useful. I have been able to shoot 405 hollow base smokeless and BP out of the trapdoor and it was accurate and grouped well. My Pedersoli shoots 405 flat base smokeless OK out to 550 yards (my range’s limit) but does not group all that great and I can see this bullet sometimes loses stability. I am excited to learn how to BP load and make my 45-70s perform to their potential. Again, many thanks. Tom. My question about how many loads was in regards to how many of a specific load do you make and take to the range to get a good evaluation. 5? 10?

[Don McDowell]

If you get the 405 or 500 gr bullet up to velocity, that buffington sight is amazingly close.
The Pedersoli rifles are pretty good about wanting bullets at .460 diameter, and a number of those old trapdoors are the same way.
Good luck and have fun in your ventures with bp, it can be frustrating but at the same time very rewarding and fun.

[Chief TC]

I think that pretty much answers my questions at this point and I have a good sense of direction to get started. Thank you all very much. I hope one day I will be in a position to teach and help folks on here.

[foesgth]

I am curious about your statement that you want to make the Buffington sight "usefull". How far are you shooting? The problem I had with the Buffington is it starts at 200 yards.
I have an 1874 with the original sight and an 1888 with the Buffington. I find myself shooting the older gun the most. I use the 55grain carbine load. I can ring steel from 50 to 300 yards. That is about as far as this old guy can do.
I have a taller sight for the "new" gun. I need to fit it and get it blued. I am then going to figure out how to shoot the Buffington at the same distance range.
I am looking forward to seeing your results.

[toot]

Welcome to a great site.