Massad Ayoob and Bill Wilson discuss hand loading ammunition for self-defense. Critic

[30calflash]

A thought.

You use your sidearm successfully in an SD shooting, say 6 feet distance. The perp and or witnesses say he was 30 feet away from the actual spot from which the action took place. I take it a GSR test would prove something regarding this aspect. The ammo you have in the firearm and any other of same type in your possession cannot be used to test as it's evidence.

Your handload with your choice of projectile and X amount of YZ powder was used. Will the defense have someone load rounds for testing? Does the prosecution?

Or ABC factory ammo was used, the same or similar lot of ammo procured from the factory for testing. No guess work there.

This is my understanding of what could happen. If you live where the firearms are highly regulated and use and carry are scrutinized does it make a difference? Without a gummint study I thinks it's fair to say the around half the citizens of this country live in restricted areas. What's truly a fair answer?

I carry factory ammo for that purpose. The FBI load worked well enough for a few decades and has a track record. If I'm carrying a 1911 it will be a popular factory HP round, with a good history. Both have been used by LE for sometime, that could be a benefit.

Does this sound reasonable, if not please tell where it may be wrong.

[M-Tecs]

In answer to J Snoover, Back in the 80s when Winchester brought out the black talon line surgeons and authorities were proclaiming it was to deadly and dangerous. The sharp petals formed by the scored jackets nose did to much damage and cut rubber gloves

Black Talons were marketed as a buss saw. It was not true than and it's not true now. The line was renamed SXT's than Ranger T Series. Nothing special or unique about them other than marketing BS that backfired on them.

https://www.guns.com/news/2013/03/22...en-v-now-video

https://winchesterle.com/Ammunition/...anger-T-Series

[megasupermagnum]

A thought.

You use your sidearm successfully in an SD shooting, say 6 feet distance. The perp and or witnesses say he was 30 feet away from the actual spot from which the action took place. I take it a GSR test would prove something regarding this aspect. The ammo you have in the firearm and any other of same type in your possession cannot be used to test as it's evidence.

Your handload with your choice of projectile and X amount of YZ powder was used. Will the defense have someone load rounds for testing? Does the prosecution?

Or ABC factory ammo was used, the same or similar lot of ammo procured from the factory for testing. No guess work there.

This is my understanding of what could happen. If you live where the firearms are highly regulated and use and carry are scrutinized does it make a difference? Without a gummint study I thinks it's fair to say the around half the citizens of this country live in restricted areas. What's truly a fair answer?

I carry factory ammo for that purpose. The FBI load worked well enough for a few decades and has a track record. If I'm carrying a 1911 it will be a popular factory HP round, with a good history. Both have been used by LE for sometime, that could be a benefit.

Does this sound reasonable, if not please tell where it may be wrong.

I fail to see why this example would ever exist in the real world, at least with any kind of defining factor. Instead the only time something like this would come up would be a "I was 6 feet away and the guy was coming at me" vs "I was 30 feet away and ducking". I fail to see how reloads could ever become a factor, and as far as I can tell it never has. Mas brings up the Michael Brown case, in which the cop said he was being attacked. Mas tries to make it seem like a reload might cause an issue with proving how he was shot. As far as I can tell, gunshot residue wasn't even a factor in The Michael Brown case. The bullet traveled up his arm, there was evidence on the police car. That's besides a number of witnesses who watched it happen. The only reason this blew up as big as it did is from rumors. A sketchy witnesses then passed on to idiot news sources, and eventually it turned into the whole hands up, don't shoot thing. I fail to see how what you are shooting would ever be a deciding factor in if someone was surrendering or not, and that's besides the fact that it was a scenario that never even happened at all.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that every case that Mas has ever brought up over the years with reloads came down to proving a scenario with GSR. Was he turned sideways, or was he facing you? He has never given an example of a case where "was he 6 feet, or was he 30?" a factor in an SD shooting. The one case he brought up about distance was the suicide, and in that case, how are you supposed to stop that? Never keep any reloads in the house ever again? Maybe not wrestle a gun out of someone's hands that has it cocked and pointed at their head? And who's to say the jury got it wrong? Who's to say the guy didn't murder his wife?

[trapper9260]

I posted this OP because I wanted to know what someone else thinks about it and thanks to all who did . Makes it easier for me to understand this better , yes I was going by what was said about the powder residue . That is the main reason I posted this. You all gave me the reply different reasons where I stand now . Yes I mainly can only afford my own reloads that is why I cast and reload my own . Thank you all . Always looking for more information on this and others on what you all post on here. I am always looking to learn something new and if I have a problem with something there is someone here always able to help thanks .

[markshere2]

Jeeze - did you guys even watch the video?

go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHA...xJt3d&index=11

invest the minutes, then decide.

He brings up specific cases and makes very good points about the possibilities and realities.

I try to consider the risk / reward ratio in all aspects of my life. Until now I have been carrying my handloads.
Immana buy SD ammo, just to cover my ass.

You all do what suits you, but I'm not too old to learn.

[dverna]

Jeeze - did you guys even watch the video?

go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHA...xJt3d&index=11

invest the minutes, then decide.

He brings up specific cases and makes very good points about the possibilities and realities.

I try to consider the risk / reward ratio in all aspects of my life. Until now I have been carrying my handloads.
Immana buy SD ammo, just to cover my ass.

You all do what suits you, but I'm not too old to learn.

Link did not work.

[30calflash]

The first link in #1 does.

marksere2 said it, watch the vid.

[Minerat]

I have Factory loads in all of my CCW firearms for one reason, they are reliable and most always feed. The reloads are the same but I always have that doubt in the back of my mind. I trust factory and I like those big flying trashcans in 45 acp HPs

[schutzen-jager]

Jeeze - did you guys even watch the video?

go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHA...xJt3d&index=11

invest the minutes, then decide.

He brings up specific cases and makes very good points about the possibilities and realities.

I try to consider the risk / reward ratio in all aspects of my life. Until now I have been carrying my handloads.
Immana buy SD ammo, just to cover my ass.

You all do what suits you, but I'm not too old to learn.

please substantiate how reloads had any bearing on outcome of those cases - subject was brought up as part of testimony only in the way i read + interpret it -

[JoeJames]

Interesting video. Never thought about gun shot residue and how the round needs to be able to be replicated for testing. It may be the best defense tool for a close in shooting. I carry a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 Special with 240 grain home cast bullets for walking around my place in the winter, but hopefully close encounters should not occur. In the summer I carry a Glock 43 with factory 9mm ammo in my hip pocket.

[375RUGER]

I used to read Ayoob's work and I appreciate what he does but couldn't the argument go just as easily against factory loads?

You would think so............Doesn't CorBon claim to make the most lethal ammo known? Winchester Black Talon ammo was sooooo lethal that Winchester had to rename it to be less lethal.

[MaryB]

A thought.

You use your sidearm successfully in an SD shooting, say 6 feet distance. The perp and or witnesses say he was 30 feet away from the actual spot from which the action took place. I take it a GSR test would prove something regarding this aspect. The ammo you have in the firearm and any other of same type in your possession cannot be used to test as it's evidence.

Your handload with your choice of projectile and X amount of YZ powder was used. Will the defense have someone load rounds for testing? Does the prosecution?

Or ABC factory ammo was used, the same or similar lot of ammo procured from the factory for testing. No guess work there.

This is my understanding of what could happen. If you live where the firearms are highly regulated and use and carry are scrutinized does it make a difference? Without a gummint study I thinks it's fair to say the around half the citizens of this country live in restricted areas. What's truly a fair answer?

I carry factory ammo for that purpose. The FBI load worked well enough for a few decades and has a track record. If I'm carrying a 1911 it will be a popular factory HP round, with a good history. Both have been used by LE for sometime, that could be a benefit.

Does this sound reasonable, if not please tell where it may be wrong.

I pull out my reloading manual, point to the load I used and say "see, it is within spec for what factory ammo delivers." I do not reload for max speed, I reload for max accuracy so I am never at the top of the scale.

[Net]

Seems the argument can be made for factory hollow points just as easily. I'd like to believe a reasonable jury would not see a difference in reloads vs factory.

[redneck1]

My thoughts tend toward ayood is a self important arrogant Jack ass that made his living selling his drivel to the highest bidder as a professional witness .
He's got nothing to say I need to hear .

And on the subject , I've found my handloaded ammunition to be far more reliable then factory.
So for better or worse if I ever feel the need to carry that's what I'll be using .
Better to be judged by twelve then carried by six .

[downzero]

anyone have any verified documentation of reloaded ammunition being a major issue in any self defense court case ?

I used WestLaw a few years ago and searched to the ends of the earth and could not find a single reported case where that ever came up. I searched every court in America (when I was in law school, we had limitless access to every database they have).

[schutzen-jager]

Seems the argument can be made for factory hollow points just as easily. I'd like to believe a reasonable jury would not see a difference in reloads vs factory.

totally concur - totally rational + precise thinking -

[schutzen-jager]

I used WestLaw a few years ago and searched to the ends of the earth and could not find a single reported case where that ever came up. I searched every court in America (when I was in law school, we had limitless access to every database they have).

i also tried to research it numerous times including New Jersy where one incident was said to have occured + could find nothing -

[reddog81]

The FBI load worked well enough for a few decades and has a track record. If I'm carrying a 1911 it will be a popular factory HP round, with a good history. Both have been used by LE for sometime, that could be a benefit.

Does this sound reasonable, if not please tell where it may be wrong.

Do you think you are some sort of FBI agent or just a vigilante want to be police officer? The prosecutor can try and spin anything. The Kyle Rittenhouse prosecutor tried to get him for using FMJ - it's what the military uses!!! If he had used hollow point ammo they would have questioned why he was prepared to hunt humans... KR's response was great. He basically said he used what was cheapest and available. The prosecutor continued pushing it and eventually he had to give up because the more he pushed it the worse it made him look.

If you use your own reloads you can just say it is what you practice with, was available and known to be reliable. The whole point of using deadly force is to use something that will work to stop the threat.

[reddog81]

Jeeze - did you guys even watch the video?
He brings up specific cases and makes very good points about the possibilities and realities.

He spends the most time on the Daniel Bias case. This was NOT a self defense case. The only logical conclusion from that case is that you should not handload ammo because someone might kill themselves with it...

[JSnover]

You would think so............Doesn't CorBon claim to make the most lethal ammo known? Winchester Black Talon ammo was sooooo lethal that Winchester had to rename it to be less lethal.

Yeah, I remember the Black Talon fiasco. Now we have Cor Bon, "R.I.P.", Zombie Ammo...
I still have some Starfire downstairs, maybe I could claim I thought it was some sort of fireworks. Sounds more artsy/flashy/sparkley than Black Rhino and whatever else they come up with. Even Gold Saber might make me look like someone who thought he was on a mission from God.
I spent a lot of time understanding (or trying to) the courtroom aspect back when I first start buying guns for HD and decided the best strategy didn't involve load data or factory specs: Have a plan. Train as much as you can. Try to stay cool when something goes wrong.