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Thread: 70gr FFg Fills A .45-70 Case; Too Much Compression?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Liberty1776's Avatar
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    70gr FFg Fills A .45-70 Case; Too Much Compression?

    I weighed out 70 grains of Goex FFg.

    When I poured the FFg into an empty .45-70 case, the powder filled the case to the rim -- as full as it could get.

    I pressed a 405 grain lead flat point in. I estimate that's about 5/8" of compression. Is that too much compression?

    How do I get 70 grains of BP into a .45-70 case?

    NOTE: I also tried measuring using a volumetric powder measure. The "70" charge weighed 69.9 grains.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Old balloon-head cases held 70 grains. Modern solid-head cases hold 55 grains, the carbine load.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy Liberty1776's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Old balloon-head cases held 70 grains. Modern solid-head cases hold 55 grains, the carbine load.
    So a .45-70 case should be loaded to a max of 55 grains, regardless of bullet size?

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Use a drop tube. 70gr will fit with the drop tube and a compression die.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master trails4u's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    Use a drop tube. 70gr will fit with the drop tube and a compression die.
    Yes to the drop tube! For my loads I get to around 65-67gr depending on powder/lot.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The old balloon head cases were also thinner walled.
    Start with a charge and wads that are no air space no compression and work up from there in your cases I have found 1 1/2 goex to want around .200-.250 compression. I normally work up in 2 grn increments watching velocity ( Standard deviation and extreme spread), fouling it gets lighter as the load gets more consistent, accuracy.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I use a 32 in drop tube /an old electric shaver fastened under the base holding the cartridge . With the vibration caused ,81 gr
    of OE 1 1/2 grains fit no problem . No delay cause I am weighting the next charge while this happens/Ed

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Castaway's Avatar
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    As stated, use a drop tube or you can vibrate the powder to settle it. Dropping is more consistent. Don’t compress with your bullet, use a compression die or “fabricate” one with a seating die and a dowel. Compress so that the bullet sits on top of the powder and will still chamber. Weigh your charges. Probably 66-68 grains is a close equivalent to what you could put in old cases and be at the same level in the case, depending on brand of brass. Use a lube specifically for black powder. The purpose of the lube is primarily to keep your fouling soft. Leading should not be an issue given the velocities and the ability of black powder to obturate the bullet to fit the barrel.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Get a funnel with at least a 4 inch tube, 8 inches works well and is manageable. Slowly pouring the powder into the funnel you should easily be able to fit 70 grs or as much as 75 grains in most 45-70 cases.
    Then you'll need a compression die of some sort, if you're using Lyman, RCBS or Saeco dies the "M"/expander die can be adjusted to compress the powder with the wad on top to the desired depth to let the bullet seat without any risk of deforming the nose.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I GAVE UP ON BLACK> IF YOU COMPRESS TOO MUCH WILL BURN LIKE A CIGERETT> WENT TO BLACKHORN209> 42 GRS> 500 GR BULLET> WITH A CARD WAD AND A PLASTIC WAD WITH A LITTLE COMPRESSION> LR MAG PRIMERS> ACCURATE OUT TO 1000YDS >
    ABOUT 1200fps OR A LITTLE LESS> BULLET JUST PUSHED IN NO CRIMP IN A ROLER SO O.L. LENGTH MUST BE DEAD ON

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Randy Bohannon's Avatar
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    Has absolutely nothing to do with your inability to use the powder the cartridge was designed for.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohannon View Post
    Has absolutely nothing to do with your inability to use the powder the cartridge was designed for.
    Could not have said it better /Ed

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty1776 View Post
    I weighed out 70 grains of Goex FFg.

    When I poured the FFg into an empty .45-70 case, the powder filled the case to the rim -- as full as it could get.

    I pressed a 405 grain lead flat point in. I estimate that's about 5/8" of compression. Is that too much compression?

    How do I get 70 grains of BP into a .45-70 case?

    NOTE: I also tried measuring using a volumetric powder measure. The "70" charge weighed 69.9 grains.
    Was that with the short Hornady brass?
    my fired cases will take 78 to 80 grains scooped in full to the top
    something doesnt compute here ?
    in winchester brass ....68grains through a drop tube + 40 thou wad + 3/16" to 1/4" compression + 535 grain boolit

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    a smaller case..like 223 will tamp it down easily....put it in in 2 lots of 35grns...and poke the 2nd lot down through the funnel with a skinny wee stick....I can get 65grns of my home rolled stuff which IN THEORY takes up more room than commercial stuff....
    pleased indian joe beat me to it...the hornady cases are about 1/8th inch shorter...I use them for my smokeless loads.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Been there, tried to do it too many times without success. Don’t even think of using a grease cookie. I tried a 3’ drop tube and compacting plug. I could never get 70 grains in without the overall length being to long for most modern type guns. I have come to believe that the original 45/70s had a much longer throat and the original boolits were seated at the very end of the brass.
    Now I load between 50-60 grains of BP with a card and a grease cookie.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    With the right tools it is no problem to duplicate the original trapdoor load using 70 gr 2f Swiss and the Lee 458-405-HB. A drop tube and compression die will set the powder height right where it needs to be. And no, the trapdoor does not have a throat at all, just a bevel on the start of the rifling just like the SAAMI 45-70 chamber does.

    My normal 45-70 paper patch loads use 81 grains of 1.5F and that fits in Starline cases with .100" to spare by using a drop tube.

  17. #17
    Banned bigted's Avatar
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    Just follow the leaders example, you will have full loads in no time. Fellers like Don Mcdowell and Nobade will never steer you wrong concerning BPCR rifles and loads. These fellers and a few that have gone over the divide have tought me by example and advice more than I can recall.

    Yes 70 grains is not only possible but in good Winchester cases I have dropped up to 80 grains as has been mentioned above. I have compressed 38-55 cases with 55 grains of 2F which is accomplished with much compression in order to seat Lymans 330 grain round nose, your compression should be less if you use an 8 inch up to a 24 inch drop tube to settle the grains prior to compressing. I also load 40 grains in new 45 Colt cases. No reason for not getting the old loads in modern cases.

    Keep trying and listening to the leaders, you too will go far in this excellent addiction . Also Id say stick with real black powder ... it just works.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Randy Bohannon's Avatar
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    Looking at the particulars from recent BPCR event in TX, was surprised to see the top 10 shooters were all using 45-70’s and not one was shooting over 69 grs of powder . Event was 800;900 and 1K yards.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Your rifle will shoot just fine with 60 to 65 grains of black powder. No need to try to get 70 grains into the case. Try different loads and let the rifle tell you what is best.

  20. #20
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    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    I've loaded many a Winchester, Federal and Remington 45-70 cases with 70 gr of GOEX FFg, FFFg and Cartridge BP to replicate the M1873 and M1882 service loads. I don't use a drop tube, just throw the charge with a Lyman 55, Then a compression die (Lee expander die body with a flat faced plug) is used to compress the powder to the seating depth of of the bullet.

    Yes, the powder is compressed into a solid mass as was the BP in the original service loads. The original 45-70 service rounds were not "balloon heads" but were inside primed with a Benet inside primer. Their capacity is very similar to Winchester cases. With such loads a strong magnum level primer is best to use. For complete information refer to Wolf Spence's book on replicating service 45-70 loads or my posts in;

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-and-Equipment
    Larry Gibson

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check