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Thread: Question for the Vietnam vets

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Reliable feeding with such would be almost impossible as would extraction. I tried modifying bolt heads and numerous other methods to get 7.62 NATO blanks to feed and extract for a training company I contracted to. Never proved successful.

    Besides, having recovered numerous MNs, both rifle and M44 types from Viet Cong I never found them short of 7.62x54R ammunition. Also recovered or destroyed tons of that ammo in their cashes. I doubt there ever was a need to shoot 7.62 NATO in their MNs. They would have used the captured 7.62 NATO in the captured guns, mostly M60s.
    Larry Gibson

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  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    reading that bit Larry...the answer pops to mind where the fallacy of swichable rounds MAY have come from... someone saw a win 307 round and thought it was the mosin garant round...you can I believe fire a normal 308 round in a .307 rifle but cant do it the other way around as rim will get in the way.

  3. #23
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    I went in 1971 Wet trough basic with the M16A1. Excellent accuracy ! But I was a long time rifle hunter. Knew sight alignment and trigger control. Was high firer in the training cycle for the regiment...... If I could see it it was hit..
    But I had hunted fox for years with Fred. He was a point man in the Nam. He was a superior shot on foot at moving targets. He carried an M14 at first until they gave him a 16 in 67. After that first patrol he refused to walk point any longer if he had to carry a 16...
    Happily I was on tanks. Hit something with a caliber .30 and it stays hit and down. Only thing better is a 105 HE or Beehive.
    Last edited by missionary5155; 09-21-2022 at 09:35 AM.
    "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
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  4. #24
    Boolit Master derek45's Avatar
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    “ the soviets canuse our ammo, but we can’t use there’s “ is a BS urban legend propagated by NCO’s

    I heard it with 7.62NATO & AKM ammo,…..and I heard it with 5.56NATO 5.45 AK-74

    even as an 18year old E-1, I knew it was nonsense
    .
    .
    .
    ….same goes for the floor buffer suicide story

    LOL
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  5. #25
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    Agree with derek45, it's an urban or barracks legend. I suspect it stems from those who associate the caliber designation as being the cartridge, i.e., "7.62" as in 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R and even 7.62x39. I even heard a well known anti-war protester at a college anti-war rally say the commies were smarter than us because he'd seen "AK magazines" used in M16s [probably the early 30 round M16 magazines as discussed here] ergo the commies could use our ammunition. I shouted he was blowing smoke and explained the facts to the crowd which effectively ended the demonstration. He then left the soap box and came to talk to me. Appears he was, in fact, a Marine who had served in Viet Nam. However, it became obvious he was in the Danang underground mess kit and P38 repair section...... the problem is, when so called "experts" say such it is often willingly believed and repeated by the unknowing. Same with recruits/boots in basic training or other training when some impressive NCO or officer says something.

    I spent 42 years in the Army [22 1/2 years active, the rest USAR and NG] of which 33 years was in combat arms, mostly Special Forces. I was there when the Army got the "green guns"/XM15s and EM16s, the Car 15s, through the development and deployment of the M16A1s, M16A2s, 'A4s and M4s. I have been on both ends of MNs, SKSs, AKs, RPDs, RPKs and AK74s along with numerous captured US and other foreign weapons. Not claiming to be an expert but after many years as an SF Weapons NCO I've a pretty good idea what can be used in what.......

    I have managed to get M80 7.62 NATO to fire in 7,62x54R chambered MNs. Took some juggling to get the primer lined up with the firing pin. Lots of miss fires before any bangs. Yes, I even wrapped tape around the cartridges. The M80 cartridges ruptured most often near the case head because of the larger chamber. Extraction was seldom positive via the extractor but required the use of the cleaning rod. Basically, a useless exercise and possibly dangerous [we had the rifles strapped to a tire and used a long piece of parachute cord to pull the trigger]. You can't chamber a 7.62x39 in a 5.56 NATO chamber but you can, sometimes, chamber a 5.56 NATO in some 7.62x39 chambers. If you fire the 5.56 NATO the cartridge case with rupture, will probably jam or not extract and beyond point blank range you will not hit anything. The weapon with not function either.

    Ponder this; The 7.62x54R cartridge was developed in the late 1880s and adopted with the MN rifle in 1991. They were Czarist Imperialists back then, not commies. Thus if the Russians back then could foresee in 1890 developing a cartridge that would be interchangeable with a not yet known enemy (the US) cartridge developed in the 1950s then perhaps the Russians are/were smarter than we thought....however, I doubt that......
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 09-21-2022 at 12:00 PM.
    Larry Gibson

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  6. #26
    Boolit Master derek45's Avatar
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    yes….“ barracks legend “ …is a better term

    thanks

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  7. #27
    Golf 2/4, 3rd Mar Div in the northern I corp 1969, we only had 20-round mags. I saw some Army guys with 30-round mags but we never had them.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by derek45 View Post
    “ the soviets canuse our ammo, but we can’t use there’s “ is a BS urban legend propagated by NCO’s

    I heard it with 7.62NATO & AKM ammo,…..and I heard it with 5.56NATO 5.45 AK-74

    even as an 18year old E-1, I knew it was nonsense
    .
    .
    .
    ….same goes for the floor buffer suicide story

    LOL
    Once I had a neighbor who worked for the Defense Intelligence agency who told me that story. In a week or so, I put a .308 case and a 7.62x39 case in a plastic bag and taped it to his front door. I never heard that story again. Were any adults ever in charge?

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Besides an AK47 magazine not fitting in an M16 there is the small technical problem that M193 5.56 is too long to fit in most AK47 magazines......

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  10. #30
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    Thank you Larry ! Good to read experienced based facts.

    Only "story" I was orientated to was that caliber .50 M2 could be fired in the Rusky caliber .51 MG. My thought was was at the time was if they had that bad of supply issues they were already whooped ! Logistics is everything !
    I was in Armor so had little exposure to the M16A1 after basic. What bliss !
    I had already figured out were I could appropriate a "trench gun" and leave an M3A1 (grease gun) in it's place. All the cooks were grease orientated.
    "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
    Male Guanaco out in dry lakebed at 10,800 feet south of Arequipa.

  11. #31
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    the M3A1 is what I used. Unlike the M16 it never failed, and it did have a 30 round magazine
    Death to every foe and traitor and hurrah, my boys, for freedom !

  12. #32
    Boolit Master derek45's Avatar
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    It's interesting to think about them hammering, . . filing, . . spot welding, . . trying to get something reliable,. . . . . . . . when all I have to do, is stop by my local sporting goods store and buy all the PMAGS I want.
    .
    .

    I was so happy to see Klintons AWB expire in 2004.

    I called Brownells and ordered a bunch of new mags, took these pics when I was out testing them.




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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysouth View Post
    In mid 67, the 1st Cav issued 5 CAR-15s per company. As you might expect, officers only got them. A few 30 rd. AR mags showed up but did not work well with more than 20-22 rounds loaded in them. There was a lot of "cool" factor associated with having a CAR-15/XM-177, but an M-16A1 was a superior weapon.
    A friend of mine who was an artillery man, said they never loaded a magazine to full capacity.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  14. #34
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    Since there is this thread.
    I’d like to ask the Vets a question.
    Without having the need to rehash the past.
    I have read up on hush puppies and some stories of such things used in the day with 22lr and all.

    My question is.

    How many of these guard geese did you all end up eating?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrabruce View Post
    Since there is this thread.
    I’d like to ask the Vets a question.
    Without having the need to rehash the past.
    I have read up on hush puppies and some stories of such things used in the day with 22lr and all.

    My question is.

    How many of these guard geese did you all end up eating?
    None, had more important objectives to deal with than to mess around with the dispatched guard geese. However, there was ample opportunity in some locations to supplement rations with locally "procured" meat.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    A friend of mine who was an artillery man, said they never loaded a magazine to full capacity.
    That was a practice that was unnecessary. The 20 round magazines were quite reliable when loaded with 20 rounds. The problem arose when troops loaded them until no more rounds could be put in, that was 20 rounds right? Not really, the problem was many of the early ones would hold 21 rounds. A magazine with 21 rounds will not easily seat into the M16 if the bolt is forward. Pounding on the bottom of the of the mag to seat it caused the top round to be crushed out of shape. If the magazine gets seated and the crushed round chambered it would jam and the bolt would not go into battery. The rounds in the magazine need to compress into the magazine when the bolt is closed. With 20 rounds in the magazine the rounds will compress and the magazine will seat easily and correctly, with 21 rounds they won't. If the mag with 21 rounds in it was seated in the M16 with the bolt locked open many times the bolt couldn't strip the top round out. Double stroking and/or jacking the bolt would many times exacerbate the jam.

    The solution was simply to only put 20 rounds in the 20 round magazines. The same applies to issue 30 round magazines, count the rounds put in and only put 30 rounds in. In all my service I never had a magazine fail that was loaded to its intended capacity of 20 or 30 rounds. What i always found ridiculous was if the Soldier/Marine would count rounds to only put 18 rounds in a 20 rounds magazine then they could have counted to 20 and put the correct number in instead of shortchanging themselves on fire power capability.

    With both 20 and 30 round magazines the top round when loaded with 20 or 30 rounds will be feeding from the right side. If the top round is on the left side the magazine is either not fully loaded or has 1 too many rounds in it. Also, with full magazines you should be able to push the rounds down into the magazine a bit.

    I might add that a lot of magazines got/get damaged by smacking them on the helmet just before loading. I've never, ever in over 40 years of service using M16s (I used them a lot) had to bang a magazine on my helmet for any reason. If the weapon is empty and you're reloading wasting the time to do that seemed a useless waste of time....load the rifle quickly to get back into the fight was the drill. Mostly saw Marines do/did that but then, Marines are prone to do weird stuff anyway......
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 10-05-2022 at 10:38 AM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    None, had more important objectives to deal with than to mess around with the dispatched guard geese. However, there was ample opportunity in some locations to supplement rations with locally "procured" meat.
    Thank-you.
    I’ve got it back all in perspective now

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check