Lee 200 in .350 Legend for deer

[Beaverhunter2]

Hi!

I think I know the answer but asking those more experienced than me always seems wise.

I'm loading a .350 Legend AR for next deer season and it's been pretty particular. I've got 2 what I call "usable" loads (2" or less 5 shot groups at 100yds). One is a Hornady 158gr FP chrono'ed at 2169fps and the other is a Lee 200gr RFN at 1960fps. My alloy is RMR Core Lead AC and PC'ed sized to .356". The rifle won't feed .358". RMR says it should be 10-12 Bhn but my Lee hardness tester says 13-14.

Questions:
Which load do you recommend?

How far out can I expect good performance (i.e. reasonable expansion) from the Lee? A long shot here is 150yds. There's too many trees to see further.

Any input would be appreciated!

John

[mnewcomb59]

Without knowing the alloy we can't predict expansion characteristics too closely. If you are getting most or all of that hardness from antimony it might mushroom, then the edges of the mushroom break off giving 80-90% weight retention and relatively deep penetration like a basic cup and core bullet. If you are getting that hardness from equal parts antimony and tin you might expect 100% weight retention and larger mushrooms and less penetration than the antimony-only alloy or a JSP. And, unlikely, but if you are getting that hardness from tin it will perform similar to the antimony and tin alloy.

Either way with that hardness and bullet profile I would expect expansion down to 1600 fps, and around 1500 fps it might rivet out to a full wadcutter shape or slightly larger. Why not load a reduced load for about 1500 fps and shoot some water jugs? If no expansion, load another about 100 fps faster and test again.

I think the Hornady FP is too fragile for quartering deer shots at impact velocities from 1600-1800 fps, so I would say your velocity is too much for big game penetration. Maybe if you shot broadside only, and only at 50 yards or farther. You definitely wouldn't be able to take a quartering shot at 25 yards because the bullet expands and fragments all the way down to the base at those high impact velocities.

[WinchesterM1]

I would use the Lee 358-200 personally, I have t killed a deer with a jacketed bullet in about 8 years, and I think the lead cast always kills better, but that’s just me

[Jeff Michel]

Saami spec's are .355, slug your bore and try .001 over. Correct me but I'm assuming your Hornady is a pistol bullet. You might consider the Hornady 170 or the Winchester 180 grain. Both are of the correct diameter for the 350 and will withstand the higher velocity than a pistol or cast. I couldn't get the Lee to do much of anything until I got around 1500 FPS (Ruger Ranch) and then it wasn't anything you would show anyone. Either of the jacketed could touch at 100 yards with 25.5 Grains of Lil' Gun. Post your results, good or poor. Both are valuable. Good luck.

[Beaverhunter2]

Thanks, Guys!

I've shot the Hornady 170gr with Lil Gun and W296 (and factory loads) and a 3 1/2" - 4" group at 100yds was a good one. I think I tried 6 or 7 different loads at 0.5gr Increments of each at least 3 times. At 27.0gr of Lil Gun (0.9gr below book max) with the 170 I started getting blown primer pockets and had 2 "belted" cases. At that point what little Lil Gun I have went back on the shelf to be burned in my .480 (which prefers W296). The 165 FTX shot a little better but not as good as the FP-XTP or the Lee. Winchester factory 180s were inconsistent for me- a 1 1/2" group followed by a 5". I've never seen the 180 bullet available as a reloading component. I emailed
Winchester and they told they're focused on ammo right now.

The 180 XTP HP shoots ok but according to Hornady it has a lower max impact velocity than the 158gr FP XTP (1800fps vs "1800fps+"). BTW The Hornady technician said both XTPs should perform OK but, as was mentioned above, really close shots could be a problem. This has been my concern all along with this bullet. Both of my favorite stands offer shots as close as 10yds out to maybe 130yds or so. The only reason I tried the 158FP is the 357 Max shooters seem to like it a lot. Their muzzle velocity is closer to 1900fps vs almost 2200 though.

A side note not applicable to whitetails is it shoots the 147gr XTP HP better than anything else at 28.5gr W296.

Another thing I'll mention is I'm actually using AA1680 above the book max. Of course it's a case capacity issue with 1680 in .350L. The pressure of the book max is around 31kpsi. I'm not much over it and not compressed.

Mnewcomb,
I am hoping to water test a few reduced loads with both bullets. I'll let you all know what I see.

Jeff,
I have no idea what the alloy is other than RMR uses it in their J-words for their bullet cores. I'm not that familiar with swaging but I figured it must be reasonably malleable. (And RMR understandably isn't saying what their alloy is.) I could try a .357" boolit but I know the rifle won't chamber .358". I only have 356" and .358" 35 caliber sizers.

Like I said before, this gun is "particular"! Lol The same lower and bolt with a 5.56 upper is at or under an inch every time if I do my part. As I suspect you know this has been frustrating, educational, and has now become a personal challenge! Lol I load 14 rifle and 7 pistol calibers and this has been the toughest one to find "The Load" for!

Take care! Thanks again!

John

[Dan Cash]

Use the 200 grain bullet and stop worrying. If you put the bullet in any half way reasonable spot, you will make meat. Your range limit depends upon how far you can achieve a 6 inch group of 2 shots or more. You won't need more than 2 if you miss as deer is gone.

[mulespurs]

I used the Lee 200 sized .356 gas checked and powder coated with 21 gr of
Win296 with very impressive results at 200 steps out of an ar-15.

Sure worked with a hi shoulder shot and very little meat damage.

I like that lee bullet a lot.

[Pepe le PewPew]

I too would pick the Lee out of your two that shoot accurately.
The suggestion of water jug tests, with reduced loads, to find how it behaves at different velocities is on the money.
Also, you could experiment with the Forster hollow pointing tool with different diameter and shapes of bits, as well as depth of pocket. This is if you want more expansion than the alloy you have provides.
Also, have you tried any Barnes or Maker solid copper bullets?
The Makers expanded to over 1” diameter down to 1400 fps in our 375 FUW.
It’s a friggen copper trifecta propeller of mayhem, disruption and blood letting.

[Pepe le PewPew]

Attachment 303279

[lar45]

My suggestion would be to use the Lee bullet. If your alloy tests at 13Bn, it should work great.
You might try your 1680 powder with the Lee 200 also.
How does your upper fit on the lower? Any slop or wiggle at all? I used Aluminum Ducting tape and put a couple of layers on the top of the lower next to the trigger cavity to shim the slop out of my 7.62x39 AR Pistol and closed the groups by more than an inch with just that mod.
I ended up switching to Barnes X bullets and got under 1" groups with it. I never could get cast to fly straight, I may have been pushing them too hard tho???

[Beaverhunter2]

Both the 158FP and Lee 200 best loads are with AA1680. My 1680 load for the Lee is 27.0gr with a CCI-41 at 2.154". (Safe in my gun. Start low and work up. YMMV. Yada, yada.)

I loaded 21.0, 22.0 and 23.0gr with the Lee for water testing next weekend. (Heading to the Michigan Trappers and Callers Convention this weekend! )

I'm planning to shoot through my chronograph and into the jugs because I have no idea what the velocities will be. This will be my first water tests and I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks for the input, Guys!

John

[ChristopherO]

Water Tests are fun and give a clue how the alloy will perform. I was shooting a 350L equivalent load with cast today into lined up water jugs. The 189 grain WFN GC/PC'd boolits killed jugs galore at 100, 150 & 175 yards with aplomb. Amazingly, even at the 175 yard test the slug had enough oomph to fully penetrate 4 and half water jugs. I know how well these expand from past tests, but the results with a 2,000 fps muzzle velocity at extended range was heartening.

Enjoy the convention and then the range time later.

[Tripplebeards]

You could see if they ever run this mold again…

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...n-HP-group-buy!

[Beaverhunter2]

You could see if they ever run this mold again…

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...n-HP-group-buy!

As one guy said - Wow. Not sure how well it would feed in an AR but... wow.

I'll post my results.

John

[Beaverhunter2]

Did my first water test ever today. My .350 with the Lee 200gr cast bullet. Unfortunately it was too dark for my chronograph to get the velocity and the bullet tracked up and exited the 5th jug into the woods. I estimate the impact velocity around 1580fps. I recovered a fragment from the 3rd jug. The bullet appears to have expanded pretty well and its part of a petal that sheared off. For some reason I can't get the pictures to upload. I'll try to add them later.

I think it'll do the job on a deer. More to come later this week.

John


BTW The load I shot was 22.0gr of 1680. I have loads that bracket that one so I should be able to get a closer approximation of the velocity.

Correction- it was the 6th jug it exited from and into the woods. Jug #1 was laying in the woods out of sight.

[mnewcomb59]

Nice! As long as you are penetrating more than 4 jugs you should be able to take quartering shots on deer. You have established your lower limit for impact velocity, now you need to see how it does right off the muzzle in case you see a deer at 10 yards. If you get more than 4 jugs at 10 yards you should be able to take a very lethal shot from 0-150 yards. Maybe double check your BC and MV and figure out what range you drop to 1550 fps and call that your max range.

[Beaverhunter2]

OK. I figured out how to upload pics and have a couple recovered boolits. The most fully expanded one had an impact velocity of 1740fps (approximately 50 yds), destroyed the first 4 jugs and was found in the 5th. The riveted one was at 1460fps so around 135 yds. The 1460fps impact boolit destroyed the first 3 jugs and just punched holes of varying sizes through 5 more and was found in the 8th jug.

I learned something yesterday- the lower impact velocity boolits penetrated more jugs. I also shot one at 1340fps and it went through all 8 jugs and is buried in the 2x6 backer. I guess because with less expansion they have to push less water out of the way.

Anyways, thanks for the input! Here's the pictures.

[mnewcomb59]

Looks awesome! Usually when a lead bullet expands it only penetrates 1/3 the distance of a bullet that keeps a 70% meplat. For example, the same bullet, same load, but one soft lead, one hard lead - we usually see 12 jugs for a hard bullet and 4 jugs when that same bullet mushrooms. Or if a hard bullet penetrates 9 jugs it will only penetrate 3 if it mushrooms.

Your least expanded bullet still looks great and I would say your minimum impact velocity can be even lower to still get a full wadcutter shape. Expansion gives up a lot of penetration with lead bullets where there is no tapering jacket and interlock band to control the expansion. That's why heavy for caliber bullets, like your 200, do better for expanding lead bullets. Judging by that 1740 fps bullet, I would still shoot a full velocity load into some jugs at about 10 yards to see what you get. You will get less and less penetration with more velocity, and I bet you get 3-4 jugs with 200 fps more impact velocity. If you still get 4 jugs at 10 yards you have found the magic load.

Pretty soon you will have the full spread like this: https://www.midwayusa.com/swift/b?bid=1201