Win 94 excessive headspace and pressure signs

[dimaprok]

When I measured the headspace on my Winchester 94 fired 30-30 brass I was quite shocked how long it was and how much it varied compared to factory ammo. Factory Winchester ammo measured average 1.472" while the 1x fired brass in my gun measured 1.509" average and it varied from 1.501" to 1.513". It also seems like the low charges of Unique (10-11gr) with light lead bullets produced longer stretched headspace where as the 2nd time fired brass using 150FMJ and middle of the road full power charges the headspace was at 1.505". I've never seen anything that varied so much in the typical cartridges that headspace off the shoulder so I am curious if this is typical in lever guns and what kind of headspace are you getting?

2nd question is I am using Shooter's World Match Rifle powder and their load data shows 2531fps at max charge of 35.6gr, I started with with 32gr and went up in 1/2 grain increments to 34, the primer looks fine, brass case head looks fine. How do I know when it's bad and I need to back off? I am using this powder because I have plenty of it. Other powders I have that I saw in Hornady manual is Ramshot TAC, an opened can of ancient 748 and generic BL(2).

[BK7saum]

Headspace in a 3030 is not measured to the shoulder. Headspace is set by the case rim. It doesn't matter how the chamber to shoulder relationship varies, just the rim recess rim fit when bolt is looked.

To reload, I would set the cartridge to headspace on the shoulder, and make sure to not just screw the sizing die all the way down.

But you may be limited to firing those cartridges in only that single rifle.

[Jim22]

It sounds like you aree loading for a .30-30. They headspace on the cartridge rim. The fact that factory cases get longer when you fire them means your chamber is cut deeply. When you reload try to back off the sizing die until either just the neck is sized or you just bump the shoulder. If any of your brass is too long for the chamber you will encounter pressure signs which you say you don't see. I would trim the longest cases only when they exceed the length that begins to show pressure.

If neck sizing only causes feeding problems try bumping the shoulder a bit. Shouldn't though. The old fashioned $10 Lee Loaders only sized the necks. But every rifle has its own quirks.

Good luck.

Jim

[Hick]

What cartridge are you shooting? If it is a rimmed cartridge, such as 30-30 or 32 Winchester Special, the headspace is the rim, not the shoulder. The shoulder of a factory new case is not intended to touch the shoulder in the chamber. Your once-fired brass will be longer because it is forming to the chamber. This is normal. This is why neck sizing is so popular with these rimmed cartridges. FYI, I just checked the dimension of the center of the shoulder on some of my neck sized brass and it is around 1.515.

[pietro]

What cartridge are you shooting?

If it is a rimmed cartridge, such as 30-30 or 32 Winchester Special, the headspace is the rim, not the shoulder. .

Winchester 94's were AFAIK ever only chambered for rimmed cartridges.

.

[M-Tecs]

The 30-30 headspaces on the rim. What you are measuring is the shoulder to chamber difference. That is how I set all my dies on cases with shoulders that have a rim or belt. I have seen as much as .030" difference when measuring shoulder to chamber clearance on rimmed and belted cases.

Quick method for measuring the headspace on rimmed cases.

http://castbullet.com/misc/hspace.htm

SAAMI specs.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf page 96

Before I retired I had access to an optical comparator, so it was easy to check everything. Now I mostly use RCBS PRECISION MIC's or the Hornady Case Comparator with actual headspace gauges. For 7mm Rem and 300 Win. I had custom headspace gauges made to use the shoulder datum point.

How are you checking the shoulder length?

[dimaprok]

The 30-30 headspaces on the rim. What you are measuring is the shoulder to chamber difference. That is how I set all my dies on cases with shoulders that have a rim or belt. I have seen as much as .030" difference hen measuring shoulder to chamber clearance on rimmed and belted cases.

http://castbullet.com/misc/hspace.htm

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf page 96

Before I retired I had access to an optical comparator, so it was easy to check everything. Now I mostly use RCBS PRECISION MIC's.

How are you checking the should length?

Thank you, that was very useful. I didn't realize the rimmed cartridges headspace is entirely different measurement. I measured on the shoulder just like all others I am used to with Hornady comparator. I will have to measure sometime the rim thickness with primer but I don't have any issues with misfires so that's not a concern. The interesting part was that according to SAAMI the distance to the shoulder line of .375" diameter is specified as 1.487" - 1.502". So it looks like my chamber was cut on the plus side and it appears that factory ammo is made on the small side - makes sense for max compatibility.

I set my FL die at first to only neck size to see if eventually the shoulder will fireform long enough that I'll run in to issue where I can't close the lever but I am no longer sure if that's even going to be the case. I readjusted the die to 1.503 for now, shoulder bump .002".

[dimaprok]

What cartridge are you shooting? If it is a rimmed cartridge, such as 30-30 or 32 Winchester Special, the headspace is the rim, not the shoulder. The shoulder of a factory new case is not intended to touch the shoulder in the chamber. Your once-fired brass will be longer because it is forming to the chamber. This is normal. This is why neck sizing is so popular with these rimmed cartridges. FYI, I just checked the dimension of the center of the shoulder on some of my neck sized brass and it is around 1.515.

Thanks! If you're getting 1.515" than I am not alone. I was just thinking that my gun was crazy out of spec! I realize it's not suppose to touch the shoulder but I didn't want to bump the shoulder crazy amount and overwork the brass either. I had my FL die setup so it only sized the neck at first but now I have it setup so it bumps a shoulder to 1.502"

[Milky Duck]

good stuff,you are on the case..... now IF you had headspace issues,as is often seen in old worn .303 brits.... a small rubber band/o ring is put infront of the rim and it hold case in place for first fireing allowing brass to expand to chamber and then the same minimal neck sizing is used on what is not in effect a larger case...sort of an akley improoved but not LOL.... agree 100% with the others...just set your die to resize neck and leave case body alone untill it gets harder to chamber,your brass will last much longer that way too.

[Harter66]

I once had these three 30-06's I eventually had a FL die set up to size max where new to me brass was used in the tight cranky chamber and another set up just tight enough to get the brass back in the tight cranky chamber.

I have a couple of 30-30s to load for these days , both so far have been happy with being neck sized with a 308 die .
I just nominally FL new to me brass for both . I load long enough to either jamb the first cast load or size a false shoulder.

The 325 Savage is a bolt so it's not so fussy about being tight the first time . The NEF break action gets set up to scuff closed . The "universal" FL sizer is set up for this one and the loose 308 sizer is just set up to bump the shell holder as the die touches only about .3 of the neck .

[indian joe]

First question
will a fired case rechamber without problems ?
I had a 30/30 built in the early 70's (I refer to as Winchesters diecast and plastic lever gun phase!) - needed a little touch of the resize die to keep it friendly

Still have a model 70 in 22/250 that I near wore the barrel out (4500 rounds) never owned a full length size die for it - that gun had a real nice neat chamber it would not take a fired case from any other we tried except another model 70 made about the same time - winchester had their specs down pat on these two.

I dont believe in moving brass that is not causing a problem - figure out where the case needs reforming and just touch it a tad until the problem goes away - thats yr best die setting. I have even made a couple of body dies that I use where it needs something but the commercial resize die is way too brutal.., (Im an Aussie - everything shooting costs us two to five times as much as you guys in the north pay if we can even get it here - so even common brass is worth looking after as best we can)

[popper]

Get you a propane torch and learn annealing properly (easy). Set your sizer to just barely push the shoulder back a few thous. Helps if you have a comparator or case gauge to VERIFY your die setting. You set the shoulder to YOUR rifle! Unique light loads have a fast high pressure that will form the thin 30/30 brass. Your hotter loads of slower powder will do the same. Use the cases till you get neck splits. Repetitive squishing/stretching neck, moving shoulder back and forth, plus stretching near the case head (from improper shoulder placement) wears out brass.

[Winger Ed.]

2nd question is I am using Shooter's World Match Rifle powder and their load data shows 2531fps at max charge of 35.6gr, I started with with 32gr and went up in 1/2 grain increments to 34,

I'd leave it at 34. You're under the max., and it might even be more accurate that the full house load.
The most accurate loads I've gotten with pretty much everything ends up at about 90% of the max. listed.

If you're shooting out to the ragged edge of what a .30-30 can do, and really need that extra few fps--
this is the perfect reason for why you urgently need to get a .308 or .30-06.

[marshall623]

I neck size for my 94 and have had no issues so far .I size it with a neck die for 3-4 loadings then FL again . I learned with the T/C s a long time ago when neck sizing with a FL die to make sure to set the die to hold back the shoulder where you want it , if don't hold back the shoulder you can make the case longer by squeezing in on the sides of the brass . So what I did with that T/C in 7-30 Waters is the die is set to hold the shoulder back and they chamber like they should and leave there for all sizing for that barrel . You be able to do that with your 94 and just have a dedicated set of dies for that gun .




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[Texas by God]

Candle black rubbed off in the sizing die shows the shoulder untouched.
My 93 Mauser is headspaced on the shoulder, though.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[dimaprok]

Get you a propane torch and learn annealing properly (easy). Set your sizer to just barely push the shoulder back a few thous. Helps if you have a comparator or case gauge to VERIFY your die setting. You set the shoulder to YOUR rifle! Unique light loads have a fast high pressure that will form the thin 30/30 brass. Your hotter loads of slower powder will do the same. Use the cases till you get neck splits. Repetitive squishing/stretching neck, moving shoulder back and forth, plus stretching near the case head (from improper shoulder placement) wears out brass.

I haven't bother to anneal anything yet. I purchased about 500-600pcs of used brass so there is no shortage of it. I do have my own made annealer although I haven't tried anything with rimmed cases yet, it's Aneelez copy but single fed. I don't know how long 30-30 brass lasts but I suspect at rate I am shooing its lifetime supply but yes I am bumping a shoulder to a minimum as of lately.

I put a red dot on this gun but even that is not good enough for me to truly test the accuracy of my loads. I can't really add a scope without buying expensive scope mount and low power pistol scope so I'll do my best to test the accuracy and leave it as is. I'll probably end up selling. If I get another one I want one with angle eject so I can drill and tap receiver for normal mount.

[Bird]

I have 30-30 brass with 30 and more reloads on them, with occasional annealing, using just under full power loadings or IMR3031 and W748. Still have 60 or 70 left out of 500 once fired brass.

[FergusonTO35]

I've never measured my cases other than OAL, and I can get at least 15 loadings from my brass across two Marlins and two Winchesters. I only have to discard when the neck cracks in the crimping area. I've also found that case length is all over the place on new brass.