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Thread: Crosman .22 cal. 14.3 gr Premier HP Study

  1. #1
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    Crosman .22 cal. 14.3 gr Premier HP Study

    I have "standardized" on this pellet because it is inexpensive ($6.24/500 on sale) and reasonably accurate in both my PCP rifles.

    Today I weight sorted 200 pellets and found:

    12 pellets weighed 14.2 gr
    95 pellets weighed 14.3 gr
    80 pellets weighed 14.4 gr
    13 pellets weighed 14.5 gr

    Average weight came to 14.347 gr
    SD came to .071
    ES was .3 gr

    I will be firing test groups to evaluate if weight sorting will enhance accuracy.

    In previous testing, it has been frustrating to have 8-9 shots into a ragged hole and get one or two fliers that were not caused by a pulled shot. These little buggers are very sensitive to wind so that could be my issue. Not sure how much a 2% ES in weight adds to fliers but this should address it. To put it in perspective, a 2% ES on a 150 gr bullet would be +/- 1.5 grains.

    Therefore, I was encouraged to find a noticeable spread in pellet weight.

    With so few pellets at the low and high end, I am pondering if I should shoot 5 shot or 10 shot groups. I am leaning towards 10 shot groups but would welcome opinions.
    Don Verna


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    Thank you (as always ) for posting this valuable info. From one of your posts a while back I jumped on the bandwagon, as they say, and placed a huge order for these from Amazon as you had suggested. (Another thank you!) For good or for bad, however, I have not yet opened these tins nor (obviously) shot any of them. But -- this info is good to know!
    Re group number, I recall reading quite the (somewhat jocund -- as "jocund" as a super-super-serious shooter may be on the subject) note by a competitive shooter in Precision Shooting magazine many years ago, where he had come up with "DFS". DFS, it turns out, stood for "Dreaded Following Shot" -- with his stating for a fact that it surely is a virtual impossibility to continue putting bullets through the one jagged hole in target... but, after how many -- might it be the NEXT shot -- will be that DFS?
    In my years, I never subscribed to the 3-shot group other than, perhaps, when first ascertaining a new telescopic sight's mount... Five shot seems OK for checking sight-in before either a hunt or a target match. On the other end of the spectrum is the "bench-resting" -- but, for ME, I believe that five-shot string is OK -- with the added constraint that it be repeated on following days/shooting sessions.
    For me, I'm not unhappy to get me 1 3/4" to 2.0" group at range -- day after day... Rather than have a group significantly smaller on one day -- and holes all over the place on another. I don't know if the word I seek is "consistency" or "reliability" or ??? with different days, perhaps arm operation, weather, ambient lighting, my own health du jour.... Or, then again, maybe I, too, am afraid of that DFS!
    Last year I was intrigued by a tool which Benjamin used to make which uniforms the skirt SIZE (diameter) of the pellets. I, too, shoot the .22 calibre in all 'cept one springer air pistol (a Beeman) in .20... I started doing kind of a "study" to see if uniformizing pellet actual size, followed by passing it through a sorting disk may have a bearing on group size, perhaps more than weight? Sadly, Mother Nature (snow!) ended that project -- but, I do have intentions to resume it.
    geo

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy rsterne's Avatar
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    A 2% total ES in pellet weight would cause only a 1% velocity change.... At 50 yards, the trajectory difference will be about a 0.1" difference in the POI.... If you are seeing flyers, I think you should look elsewhere besides that weight difference....

    Bob

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsterne View Post
    A 2% total ES in pellet weight would cause only a 1% velocity change.... At 50 yards, the trajectory difference will be about a 0.1" difference in the POI.... If you are seeing flyers, I think you should look elsewhere besides that weight difference....

    Bob
    Bob, you could be right. It would matter more on a cast bullet where that 2% could be from a void or inclusion depending on where that difference is. In the center of bullet, it may have minimal effect, whereas closer to the outer edge, it may cause an unbalance.

    With a swaged bullet, there should be no voids. OTOH I would expect swaged bullets to have less than a .3 grain (2%) variation. I checked a sample of "cheap" Zero 230 gr FMJ bullets a few years ago and the weight variation was .6 gr. or .26%.

    Groups will tell the story. I believe the rifle is capable. I am decent enough trigger puller to know when I screw up. If the weight sort has no effect, that leaves George's suggestion of pellet uniforming.

    The cheapskate in me would love to get these pellets to shoot as well as the JSB's and Air Arm's for 1/3 the cost.
    Last edited by dverna; 08-13-2022 at 04:51 PM.
    Don Verna


  5. #5
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    Here’s something to think about: if there’s a difference in weight (there is), do you know why there is a difference? These pellets are made in different molds. Some molds my simply be dimensionally different causing the weight difference. Perhaps they are distributing the weight differently as well. It may not simply be a difference in weight, it may be a difference in dimensions where one could be out of round to start with, thinner skirt, etc ,etc, etc. It would be interesting to see how many molds are used and how many cavities are used in each mold. I spent a lot of time weighing bullets back when I was shooting silhouette. I found that Eley std. ammo had the greatest weight difference of all the target ammo I tested….by a wide margin. However, it shot the best of all the ammo I used and I shot my highest scores with it. My point is this: there are probably many unknowns besides weight related to accuracy. If you could get some different lot numbers of the same brand of pellets and use samples from a variety of tins you’d get a better picture of your true “process performance” by focusing on weight alone. Please post your results no matter how you do it. It’s all interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Bob, you could be right. It would matter more on a cast bullet where that 2% could be from a void or inclusion depending on where that difference is. In the center of bullet, it may have minimal effect, whereas closer to the outer edge, it may cause an unbalance.

    With a swaged bullet, there should be no voids. OTOH I would expect swaged bullets to have less than a .3 grain (2%) variation. I checked a sample of "cheap" Zero 230 gr FMJ bullets a few years ago and the weight variation was .6 gr. or .26%.

    Groups will tell the story. I believe the rifle is capable. I am decent enough trigger puller to know when I screw up. If the weight sort has no effect, that leaves George's suggestion of pellet uniforming.

    The cheapskate in me would love to get these pellets to shoot as well as the JSB's and Air Arm's for 1/3 the cost.
    The two tools I have and use are the Beeman and the PelletGage (mine is the UK version -- photo is an Airguns of Arizona clone which is most likely identical). They work for me
    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    I have one of those pellet seating tools from ages ago. Almost immediately stopped using it. Mind it only got tested on one rifle.
    The groups if anything got bigger. The other curiosity was, using the pointy end to seat pellets deeper, there was a significant velocity loss.
    I should dig it out and try testing with some newer toys

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by chutesnreloads View Post
    I have one of those pellet seating tools from ages ago. Almost immediately stopped using it. Mind it only got tested on one rifle.
    The groups if anything got bigger. The other curiosity was, using the pointy end to seat pellets deeper, there was a significant velocity loss.
    I should dig it out and try testing with some newer toys
    Waaaaay back when Dr. Beeman was enthusiastically writing volumes on airgun target result improvement, I recall his penning that the two secondary variables of most importance were the pellet skirt size -- each identical to maximize friction/grab replication from pellet to pellet, and, repeated identical placement of the pellet in airgun. (Primary included the firearm, the weight/composition/shape of pellet, condition of arm (springs, leathers, et cetera)). Granted, this was when springers only were offered by Beeman...
    Anyhoos, even with today's PCPs, it seems to seat each pellet, which had been uniformed, to the same identical depth cannot hurt? We all pretty much know that seating a powder-propelled bullet deeper will increase pressures -- often significantly! -- so, to my feeble brain, whether propelled by spring-compressed/released air -- or by a valved/PCP -- might not this be a variable?
    Going back to uni-formalizing the pellets, I recall many, also waaay back, resembled Badminton shuttle cocks in shape, with their back ends quite thin. It was not uncommon to find several in each tin kind of scrunched -- and, (my) pushing down on those still in the tin to get one or more out to shoot surely did not prevent others from being deformed.
    Albeit it very well may be a placebo effect -- when I am seriously trying to shrink a group, I do use the sizer gage (UK spelling for gauge) and PellSeat... Maybe no real effect... but then again...?
    Just some early a.m. thoughts...
    geo

  9. #9
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    I got some groups fired this morning using the Daystate Huntsman. Sorry about quality of picture:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    All pellets treated with 20 drops of Ballistol per tin of 500.

    Wind was quartering from 1:30 and gusting at about 7 mph

    Using 10 shot groups:

    14.2 gr - one group .597" with no fliers
    14.3 gr - .663" (one flier caused by wind - .505 witout flier) and .529"
    14.4 gr - .501" and .553" with no fliers
    14.5 gr - .595" (one flier but no reason)

    In previous testing with unweighed pellets, plus Ballistol; ten, 10 shot groups averaged .509" (steadier wind)

    It is noteworthy that groups are dispersed primarily horizontally. This is typical and not caused by technique or a wobbly bench. Wind is not my friend.

    IMO weight sorting is a waste of time for these pellets. When I want to shoot better groups, I need to revert to shooting the JSB's and Air Arm's pellets this gun likes. But, at three times the cost, they make no sense for plinking as I am not a good enough shot to justify it.

    Bob was correct. Weight variation is not the issue.
    Don Verna


  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    Assuming the correct hold over/under, every one of those shots would be a dead squirrel. That's all I really ask of an air rifle.
    Projectiles this light are influenced by things possibly beyond our senses. For the price of the CPHPs, that is really awesome shooting

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by chutesnreloads View Post
    Assuming the correct hold over/under, every one of those shots would be a dead squirrel. That's all I really ask of an air rifle.
    Projectiles this light are influenced by things possibly beyond our senses. For the price of the CPHPs, that is really awesome shooting
    You are correct. On a still day, 50 yards is an ethical range IMO.

    But for hunting I would spend the extra few dollars for heavier pellets that will be more accurate, less affected by wind, and hit a bit harder. Even premium pellets can be had for $30/k on sale. $60 is a lifetime supply of hunting pellets.

    For plinking and training the grandson, the Crosman's are a “Best Buy”.
    Don Verna


  12. #12

    roll sort your pellets

    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I have "standardized" on this pellet because it is inexpensive ($6.24/500 on sale) and reasonably accurate in both my PCP rifles.

    Today I weight sorted 200 pellets and found:

    12 pellets weighed 14.2 gr
    95 pellets weighed 14.3 gr
    80 pellets weighed 14.4 gr
    13 pellets weighed 14.5 gr

    Average weight came to 14.347 gr
    SD came to .071
    ES was .3 gr

    I will be firing test groups to evaluate if weight sorting will enhance accuracy.

    In previous testing, it has been frustrating to have 8-9 shots into a ragged hole and get one or two fliers that were not caused by a pulled shot. These little buggers are very sensitive to wind so that could be my issue. Not sure how much a 2% ES in weight adds to fliers but this should address it. To put it in perspective, a 2% ES on a 150 gr bullet would be +/- 1.5 grains.

    Therefore, I was encouraged to find a noticeable spread in pellet weight.

    With so few pellets at the low and high end, I am pondering if I should shoot 5 shot or 10 shot groups. I am leaning towards 10 shot groups but would welcome opinions.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o0vq__b60g

    this is how ya do it , but make your rolling surface at a very slight angle,, and you do not need to head size first,, with crossman premier hp pellets your getting pellets off of several dies , if you roll sort them , then shoot , you will see a great difference in groups. with a pellet like jsb you might have the pellets go into 3 piles with a few out of those piles.. with the crosman, you will have 5 piles and a few vary from those 5 piles.
    Interesting,, try it,, i dont do all mine, just enough for fine target work,

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan scott View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o0vq__b60g

    this is how ya do it , but make your rolling surface at a very slight angle,, and you do not need to head size first,, with crossman premier hp pellets your getting pellets off of several dies , if you roll sort them , then shoot , you will see a great difference in groups. with a pellet like jsb you might have the pellets go into 3 piles with a few out of those piles.. with the crosman, you will have 5 piles and a few vary from those 5 piles.
    Interesting,, try it,, i dont do all mine, just enough for fine target work,
    Bryan,
    I have never heard of roll sorting before. Would you be kind enough to share the difference in groups you achieved doing this?

    It would seem head sizing would be necessary.
    Don Verna


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Bryan,
    I have never heard of roll sorting before. Would you be kind enough to share the difference in groups you achieved doing this?

    It would seem head sizing would be necessary.
    I can follow what’s being done sorting by concentricity and difference in diameter between skirt and head. However, I’d like to see how that translates into group size. What is the correlation? I guess I’m wondering the same thing Don is. How meaningful is it?

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I did more research. Some people swear by "roll sorting", some people swear at it.

    One guy took the same pellet and rolled it multiple times and it varied quite a bit in terms of where it "fell". The technique may be susceptible to how the pellet starts its journey from the vertical position.

    If I was going to compete, I would spend a lot more time and effort and do a proper experiment. It would require more than a piece of glass with a framing square as the test bed...need to make sure the pellet starts the same way every time.

    For my needs, even weight sorting is too much work to make it a regular protocol. No way I want to wash, weigh sort, head size sort, roll sort then lube. I am too lazy to do all that and get a 1/4" improvement in group size at 25 yards. I get my jollies out of shooting.

    https://www.airgunnation.com/threads...art-1.1050406/

    I did not read it all. Stopped after the guy did test 2 in article 3:

    "Test Two ~~ How accurate is the machine?

    Clearly something was amiss and a theory emerged. I decided to roll the same pellet 30 times to discover how the rolling machine was performing. I selected one at random from the original test sort #1. It rolled "long" about a third of the time but again we see in my note page that a normal curve was forming. That single pellet did not consistently land in the same cell? Here are the notes I took on that test."
    Don Verna


  16. #16
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    How accurate is the machine? In statistics you have to do a gage “R&R” in order to get any meaningful data.

    For those who don’t know: R&R means Reproducibility and Repeatability. Two different operators use the same gage and compare results.

    I used to watch a lot of people weigh bullets for smallbore silhouette and also measure rim thickness. It didn’t seem to work very well. The ammo I used most was Eley std Target (the cheap brown box stuff). It shot the best out of my guns and it had the most weight variation of any quality target ammo I tested. In spite of that I shot many, many perfect scores with that stuff. For airgun shooting I bought a couple of sample packs which contained 25pcs of twenty-five different brands/weights of quality target pellets. I picked five of each at random and tested them all. I soon found that a couple of brand/weights shot better by far than the others. As a former quality engineer, I took the liberty to assume that those five at random selections captured most of the variables by not being sorted. I got a better picture of which pellets shot in my gun and which ones had the least amount of variation. For my needs that worked out very, very well. Since I’m not shooting world class competition, that ended up being good enough for me. Just depends how far you’ve gone and how much further you want to take it.

  17. #17
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    NSB,
    Very valid post.

    BTW before I became a "useless over paid executive" I managed a QC department at a $65 million facility. You must be my brother from another mother....LOL.

    That is why I get anal about testing and shooting lots of groups. I discount most of the groups I see on this and other forums. People do not know what they do not know or flat out "lie".

    My Daystate has turned in dozens of 1/2" groups at 50 yards but it is NOT a MOA rifle with me pulling the trigger.
    Don Verna


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Bryan,
    I have never heard of roll sorting before. Would you be kind enough to share the difference in groups you achieved doing this?

    It would seem head sizing would be necessary.
    harry’s roll sorting . yrrah
    the only way to go for your tightest shooting. quick and easy , sorts to pellet size, and weeds out any deformed pellets.
    really you will not see a big difference if your gun will not shoot 1/4” to 3/8” at 50 yards

    i do this for when i am going for the tightest groups.i don’t weight them , or wash them

    i believe the roll gets you were you need to be, real quick ,
    otherwise just sling em.



    it makes a considerable difference in my condor,with the crossman hp
    if you just pull them from the tin, you can shoot just as tight a group as with the sorted pellets, but only when you happened to pick up 5 of the pellets that group the to the same position,

    i have found that jsb seem to roll to three positions, with some that stray out of these 3 positions ,
    crosman premier hp on the other hand roll to 5 positions, with some straying from the 5

    i was looking for pictures of doing this, this was 8 to 10 years ago when i was doing all this.. its the pellet size difference that makes the most difference, between the head size and skirt size. when you roll them its quick and simple, it sorts your head size , and when you shoot groups from the same pile, you will see a difference, i started noticing distinct groups when shooting prolonged group test, while tuning my PCP, i would see for instance a 3/8'' group form in 3 different locations,,all under 1/2'' or so, with flyies,,, when shooting 50 yard groups. with the Crossman hp. you can weight till your eyes bleed, use sizing dies, pellet skirt expanders,i played with all of that, very inefficient ,, when i found yrrah , his forum name, on the yellow forum, , [Harry} roll technic, i've never weighed another pellet. does away with most all fliers , groups shrink,, if you give this an honest test , its way quicker,, i dont shoot all sorted pellets, only use them for testing for tightest groups,

    https://airgunwarriors.com/community...ds/#post-27833
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    i have a clip board shimmed up from the desk so the pellets roll off into a container like this, set up the clip board at slight angle right to left and higher at top than bottom ,,, just enough to make them roll on there own , when set against the edge of the side in same spot every time. so the pellets will come down


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    , top left corner 1 1/4 '' top right corner 2''
    bottom left 1'' bottom right 1 1/4'' off desk

    i just rolled these 10 pellets, and they landed as shown,, you can even sort to a higher degree than i have with my container, which i have done to achieve tightest group testing with the crossman hp .

    Click image for larger version. 

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    these are not full boxes of 625, they have been shot out of.
    these are Crossman Premier domed 14.3 g 625 count brown box pellets {when you could still get them) , rolled ,,,, notice rolled more consistent ,, less variation .
    Last edited by bryan scott; 08-21-2022 at 12:30 PM.

  19. #19
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    What the heck. I will give it a try. 50 pellets will tell the tale. It will take longer to set up the roll sorter than to run 50 pellets.
    Don Verna


  20. #20
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    Don't think I'll ever NEED that degree of precision but the small groups into different POIs has got my interest.
    Will be following this thread

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