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Thread: Cast Boolit Weight Variances

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Cast Boolit Weight Variances

    I am normally NOT this anal, but in the pursuit to tighten up the groups in the 35 caliber I started down the rabbit hole, weighing each boolit to see where they fall on the scale. The mold is the NOE 182U WFN GC & PB combo. What is shown are GC only, water dropped range scrap with Smokes PC baked on:

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    The findings show way shooting tiny groups has been an effort in frustration out of the rifle between 1,850 to 2,000 fps when used unsorted. These varied between 187.8 up through 190.6 grains. I packaged those most interested in between a .3 grain +/- variance, achieving at least 15 in a package for the 3 most desired weights. The 188.5-188.9 were bagged together and the remainder of what is in the picture, 187.8, 187.9, 190.3 & 190.6, were combined for testing on paper to see how this wide weight swing will ultimately print.

    The best of a weight are to be saved for eventual hunting rounds

    Other same said boolits previously cast and sized will be used for off hand practice at steel.

  2. #2
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    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
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    That's pretty normal.
    Over the years there's been several articles addressing this effect.

    Something I've found that helps to have a larger percentage of a batch in the sweet spot is to stir the pot a lot and often.
    I don't know how long it takes for the parts of the alloy to stratify out, but it seems like it doesn't take long.
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  3. #3
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    I doubt I can prove it, but minor changes in density caused by alloy differences is not a big factor. The problem is voids or inclusions. When those occur further from the radial center of mass..."Houston we have a problem".

    I did a weight study on commercial 200 gr SWC .45 bullets. Weighed 20 and got an ES of 1.7 gr and SD of .49

    Your ES is 2.8 gr on a slightly lighter bullet. That may point to "tuning up" your casting technique to get better consistency.
    Don Verna


  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winger Ed. View Post
    That's pretty normal.
    Over the years there's been several articles addressing this effect.

    Something I've found that helps to have a larger percentage of a batch in the sweet spot is to stir the pot a lot and often.
    I don't know how long it takes for the parts of the alloy to stratify out, but it seems like it doesn't take long.
    [2] It is a common misconception that because they are less dense than lead, antimony and tin may undergo gravity separation from the melt. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the absence of oxygen or oxidizing materials, melted lead alloys will remain stable and mixed virtually forever. And from Lyman, [3]Perhaps the single most significant error in all the bullet casting literature is the misconception that lead-tin-antimony alloy melts gravity segregate.

    Unless you are going to also weigh each powder charge, and each case, you are not likely to affect much change in your group size.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Unless you are going to also weigh each powder charge, and each case, you are not likely to affect much change in your group size.[/QUOTE]

    Conducted a loading this afternoon with a sorted batch, well thrown charges of H4227, tuff of dacron, WIN 8.5-120 primers and all IMI 30/06 brass previously blown out to 35 Whelen. Next range session will be interesting to see what transpires.

    The two extremes of weighed boolits were then loaded with the same charge of H4227, dacron, WIN 8.5-120 primers using all 30/06 FC brass (ran too low on the IMI). Intentionally I won't know which cartridge will be 187.8 or 190.6 grains when the trigger is pulled when shooting those. I remember casting thousands of pure lead Mzlder slugs in a cast iron pot over a propane burner with better success than I do these. Kind of takes the thrill of casting out of it. But, I like to shoot, thus I continue.

    "Your ES is 2.8 gr on a slightly lighter bullet. That may point to "tuning up" your casting technique to get better consistency."
    This probably has more merit than about anything else suggested. Either the PB cavity is pouring well and the GC side is so-so or I put the emphasis on the GC cavity and start scrapping quite a few PB boolits. I'm not knocking the mold, but I have a difficult time getting into a cadence with it as I have other multiple cavity molds I use. The hole in the sprue plate has a bit of a lip that builds up over time. But the real culprit is mostly likely the Lee 20 lb pot that I dip the lead out of. A PID would be a good investment to make the heat fluctuate less.
    Last edited by ChristopherO; 08-13-2022 at 05:44 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bannister View Post
    [2] It is a common misconception that because they are less dense than lead, antimony and tin may undergo gravity separation from the melt.

    Interesting. Thanks for that.
    I never researched it, and only got 'B's at best in High School Chemistry.
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    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


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  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bannister View Post
    [2] It is a common misconception that because they are less dense than lead, antimony and tin may undergo gravity separation from the melt. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the absence of oxygen or oxidizing materials, melted lead alloys will remain stable and mixed virtually forever.
    Yep! Many of us (me included) have trouble picturing this, maybe because we have seen iron wheel weight clips float in the lead. But-- strange at it might sound, at the temperatures of the molten alloy it is a solution-- just like salt water. In this case, tin and antimony dissolve in lead just like salt dissolves in water.
    Hick: Iron sights!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    ya, that is true,i.e. the stuff stays mixed and does NOT gravity separate out. The atoms share an electron, or two depending. When the main ingredient ( lead ) has no more electrons to share, then you will get some separation. For us, common bullet alloys, there is always enough lead with a free electron to share. If you really push he mix, like 50% tin you might start to see this type of separation, but I doubt it. Tin and lead mix well. Maybe Lead and antimony, or arsenic might show it better. It's kind of like chocolate milk. You toss in a couple scoops and stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiir and drink before it separates out. Some wll always stay in the milk. a lot will fall out. That is suspension, not the kind of bonding we are talking about with lead alloys. The chocolate is simply suspended by the string, not bonded by electrons.
    To the OP, this kind of weight thing has always driven me nuts. Are you weighing before the PC? The variation might be narrowed down by weighing in "as cast" order. Maybe your gripping tighter or loser. Maybe your fav song came on the radio. It has always driven me nutz. You might try a concentricity gage. I have a couple 35 Rem and I can't find a bullet with correct bore riding or front driving bands,: too much nose hanging out in front. Also both are lever guns so cleaning rod wear on the crown may be a factor. Also, in my experience, blown out brass is never as uniformly thick in the neck as factory. You mght be seating off center. HOw is the PC around the base? If your crown has issues then PCX may not be helping. sorry for the typos, I slopped coffee on this keyboard. keep us posted

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I read that and picked up H4227-------.30/06-------thrown charges---------
    now I KNOW that Im new to this whole cast boolits thing...but that powder isnt listed in hodgdon manual for that cartridge to begin with...in either a 1991 or 2012 hodgdon manaul pamphlete thing....
    so IM GUESSING you are using load data from elsewhere?????
    thrown charges should be pretty good...within 1/2grn DEPENDING on technique of thrower
    h4227/h110--------similar to IMR 4227 AND WINCHESTER 296
    something I would associate with .44magnum or .410 shotgun....very hot n fast and "said to be"(yes whole thread written on this bit) very temperamental if less than a full charge is used...we wont go there....
    so immediately there is two areas to look at HARD before blaming a little (%wise) difference in projectile weight for a poor grouping.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I see 4227 in 35 winchester ...so perhaps its 35whelan...the 30/06 bit is the donor brass...but again at 30 grains its going to be one of the less full cases VS up to 50 of other powders....

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Weight consistency comes down to casting consistency. Keeping temperature of mold, pot and pour constant. Establishing a consistent flow into the cavity and a good sprue puddle.

    The good thing is you can get there. I started out like yours, 2-3gn spread for 170gn bullets. Now days I have a 1gn spread at most. There will be some that stretch the curve. The pour was bad and you got a large inclusion or the mold did not fill out properly or a sprue puddle was not large enough or the mold cooled a bit too much (or you got it too hot). Some of this you can see when inspecting the bullets, some inclusions you cannot.

    And, as stated above, some powders and charge weights just do not do well. I can take all the care in the world with bullets and making the cartridge, but, a bad load will produce large groups.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Gentlemen, I appreciate all your thoughts and suggestions. This hidden side of the shooting sports is where much of the satisfaction come in, thinking, planning, testing and trying another angle.

    Yes, I use powder that I can find, including what is left of a jug of H4227 in the 35 Whelen and the 45/70. With a tuff of dacron it stays put next to the primers and fires well. This may sound counter intuitive, but when originally testing loads in the 45/70 with 420 grain WFP GC Lubed boolits the best groups I've gotten were 26 grains of an old can of H2400, which is even faster than H4227. Yes, these were all published loads. I have old manuals on hand. Far better groups than Varget, 3031 and a number of other conventional powders trialed that are touted as the berries for that cartridge. With that knowledge I take my time to measure the powder, stuff a fluff of dacron and seat each round at one time before it goes into the loading block finished.

    When I am shooting jacketed bullets from the 35 RX12 was excellent, but it is no longer made. (on that note; RX3100 is garbage, jacketed or cast) Now I use other suitable powders for that application, which isn't often. This rifle is mainly a fun and cheap cast shooter.

    As the two pounds of H2400 have dwindled my research has led me to use the H4227 in stock. I believe the 45/70 likes it even better. The 35 Whelen can print some decent groups, but there are those pesky flyers that I would like to tame. I awoke yesterday morning with the desire to weigh the boolits pictured above. Didn't want the information to go to waste and hoped that sharing will benefit more than just myself.

    There is a newish can of H4895 on the shelf that can be downloaded by 40%, so says the helpful gentleman at Hodgdon. Though saving it for another application it may prompt me to load up a select few of these 35's to see if the flyers go away. I'll keep that in mind if the tests loads mentioned prior continue to be ornery.

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  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    all good....and thankyou for taking time to explain the "why'' you use it.....interesting a really fast powder worked for you in .45/70 it might just tempt me to try some red/green dot...might.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    The Results of weighing these boolits are now on paper. I always expect the first two shots out of a cleaned barrel to hit out of where the patter normally settles down to. These were no different. Shot one was with the last R-P brass load from the last time out. Shot two was what was loaded for today's use with FC Brass. All the FC Brass loaded boolits weighed between 189.0 grains to 189.3 grains.
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    The last five shots, 3-7, printed the best group I've achieved yet with a full tilt cast boolit at hunting velocity in this rifle, which is right in the 2,000 fps range. This gave me much confidence that this combo can be taken out and enjoyed during a serious hunting excursion.

    Then I aimed the rifle at the target to the right with the same 26 Grains of H4227, tuff dacron, WIN 8.5-120 LRP only these were in IMI brass and weighed between 188.4 - 188.9. By this time the barrel is hot, in the full sunshine and not given much time to cool off. Shots 1 & 2 were odd, so I attributed them to a hot barrel:
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    I walked the 100 yards to the target, marked shots 1 & 2, scrounged around on the mound to find some boolits and slowly made my way back to the bench to finish this session off.
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    The barrel wasn't cool, but not as hot. Still the sun kept it quite warm to the touch. Taking my time it proceeded to create a 'nice' little string of holes right to left. Hot barrel, different weight boolits, different brass? Possible build up the barrel from the previous 8 shots might have caused this, but when cleaning the rifle after the last range time, other than carbon, it was clean and clear of lead particles. Man, this is a touchy combination. Why such a discrepancy between targets? They normally run out up/down/right/left when the planets don't align. This was basically right/left.

    With 7 shots of the first confidence building loads (THE LOAD) with FC Brass left I took the tripod and sand bag back to 175 yards and aimed at the cap of the first jug in a line of 4 & 1/2 gallon jugs. A satisfying water spray erupted at that which I was focused upon. The hit was about 9 inches below the cap. Then I repositioned to 150 yards and fired a round at another line of jugs. This hit was about 6" below the cap being aimed at. This prompted a few shots at jugs that had fallen on their sides from the hydrostatic shock. Without using the tripod or sandbag, only the sling in the prone position those shots fell into two water jugs, also. I finished the last jugs standing off hand at 100 yards.
    Obviously I need to select another segment of weighted boolits to load in the FC Brass and save for use this Fall.

    Can I say for sure the success was brass related alone? I don't know. All else was exactly the same, sans the brass. The target proved it worked very well. The water jugs gave a good display with them, too. I wouldn't have thought that brass alone would make such a difference. All in all, it has been an enjoyable trip getting to this point, though.

  15. #15
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    ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IN ACCURACY I WANT ALL 10 SHOTS TO GO INTO THE SAME HOLE BE IT AT A FEW FEET OR AT 1000 yds RIGHT LEFT IS USUALLY THE WIND HOT BARREL MAY EFECT YOUR LEFT TO RIGHT STRINGING CHECK BEDDING UP DOWN IS VOLISITY WIND FROM THE FRONT OR FROM THE BACK WILL DO UP DOWN TO YOUR BULLET LIGHT WILL EFECT WHERE YOU BULLET HITS ON TARGET BULLET WEIGHT WILL EFFECT THIS GREATLY I WEIGH EACH BULLET AND SEPERATE THEM BY 1/10 OF A GRAIN I WEIGH EACH POWDER CHARGE TO EXATLY THE SAME WEIGHT ALL BRASS FROM THE SAME LOT DIFERENT BRANDS OF BRASS VOLUME EFFECT VOLOSITY SO UP AND DOWN CARBRON IN THE CASE WILL EFECT VOLOSITY
    A CLEAN CASE IS MANDOTORY FOR CONSINISTY LUBE WILL EFECT VOLOSITY AND ACCURACY PRIMERS NOT SO MUCH I TRYED EVERY BRAND OF MAG PRIMER I COULD FIND AND ALL WORKED GREAT FEDERAL AND CCI GAVE ME 100 fps MORE WITH ONLY CHANGING THE PRIMER I KEEP ALL MY CAST BULLETS MADE IN PURE LEAD AND KEEP THEM AT 1200 fps OR A LITTLE LESS I USE A CRONAGRAF TO ENSURE THAT THEY STAY AT THAT SPEED EVEN WITH POWDER LOT CHANGES MY 45/70 IS ACCURATE OUT TO 1000yds 8/10 IN THE X RING IF I DO MY PART

  16. #16
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    Sorry; that much text in ALL UPPER CASE is like shining a flashlight in my face.
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  17. #17
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    As cast & CharlieB have spelled it out Winger Ed too.

    STIR MORE OFTEN!

    When ya dump sprues back in FLUX STIR & WAIT for temps to come back.

    I find that the alloys DO NOT like to remain well
    Integrated. Fluxing greatly helps this. Stiring is self explanatory.

    Like all things re loading and again as mentioned above CONSISTENCY is key to better results.

    Now you are still going to see some variances!! BUT, dont get too caught up here.

    #1 Dont even think about weight sorting your pistol plinking bullets.

    #2 Weigh some commercial products and see they vari as well.

    I Cull bullets on a few variables and that can vari for the. Ullet
    Design. For example. Obvious drips sags and fill out issues are culled @ casting table. Rest is culled as I size or gas check. Its pretty easy just slow your roll a bit. You are required to handle every single Bullet anyhow. So take advantage of this. Tumble lube bullets can have more fillout issues. (Heat issues) and are not imidiately noticeable. (Esp as we age and loose fine sight) So I remove the bulk bottle from
    My sizer and sort for how a bullet fits in sizer AND how the bullet sizes. I powder coat 98% so I push thru size. This allows much better feel then the lyman or RCBS luber sizers because the area that sizes is far thinner. So when you push a bullet thru you feel the crimp and lube grooves. So when a slightly non filled out bullet is sized it is IMMEDIATELY noticed. Now I do not necessarily dispose of these bullets. I simply sort them from best bullets. Nall this for me is mostly when casting for a rifle. Not nearly as much for a pistol.

    Bottom line, dont be too anal with amount of variance (remember a 1-2% can seem allot with really heavy bullets. STIR THAT POT, and FLUX OFTEN, lastly change how you re integrate the sprues into the pot.

    Lastly HAVE FUN!

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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    CW, Your use of this particular boolit prompted my fixation on getting them to work. I like the design and they feed smoothly in my rifle well. I agree with your #1 suggestion 100%, anything that would be for pistol use would not be weighed, just shot down range. I felt that I needed to be a bit overly determined, though to get the most of this round in the rifle, thus the weighing them.
    Alright, next casting session I'll stir more often. When that admonishment is repeated 3X's then it needs to be heeded. LOL
    Thanks All, I'm enjoying the process.

  19. #19
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    Not to be insulting, but nothing shown is good. I wouldn't even accept that accuracy from a shotgun (I would a smooth bore). There is something going on here that is throwing your shots wild, and it isn't your bullet weight variance. It isn't your powder charge variance. Is there any reason you can't seat them out farther? You are shooting a pistol bullet with zero front driving band. The way you have them loaded, they have a mile long jump to the rifling. I'm assuming you have confirmed the rifle and scope are ok with a different full power load. If not, make sure, as the way your groups look I would suspect a failed scope.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Most of my bullets weigh within .3 of a grain unless they have a visible flaw. Some of the bullets with flaws shot surprisingly well. These were handgun bullets and the flawed ones shot as well or better than I can. Mild flaws that is.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check