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Thread: Crazy Powders

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    Oh, now H110 can't be reduced more than 3%? It's really crazy watching internet rumors in action.
    Well, I didn't get that from the internet. I read it in a loading data pamphlet supplied by WINCHESTER (or whatever they're calling themselves) concerning data for the use of W296. AND, since W296 and H110 are one in the same...
    Look, they're YOUR guns, hands, and eyes. YOU put them at risk in any way that YOU see fit. But do NOT dismiss recommendations I've seen in print, FROM THE PROPELLANT SUPPLIER as "internet myth". It only emboldens others to be as reckless as YOU.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


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  2. #42
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    Yes Winchester has that disclaimer in it's manuals, then gives you a starting load that is lower than 3%. Which page of the manual do you believe?
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    Well, I didn't get that from the internet. I read it in a loading data pamphlet supplied by WINCHESTER (or whatever they're calling themselves) concerning data for the use of W296. AND, since W296 and H110 are one in the same...
    Look, they're YOUR guns, hands, and eyes. YOU put them at risk in any way that YOU see fit. But do NOT dismiss recommendations I've seen in print, FROM THE PROPELLANT SUPPLIER as "internet myth". It only emboldens others to be as reckless as YOU.
    And can you please provide the quote from that manual, in full context for us please? A picture would be just as good.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    Yes Winchester has that disclaimer in it's manuals, then gives you a starting load that is lower than 3%. Which page of the manual do you believe?
    I think I know what manual he is referring to, it's an old one, but it needs the rest of the paragraph for context too.

  5. #45
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    Take a few flakes of powder or a few sticks of extruded powder place them on a hard surface such as an anvil and strike with a flat faced hammer. It will sound like a cap gun.

    Ask yourself how could this happen inside of a cartridge?

    Also if you shoot a can filled with smokeless powder with a high velocity round it will go boom just as impressive as tannerite.

  6. #46
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    Ok, my turn

    I have used H110 per the manuals with no problems. I do experiment a bunch but when in doubt stick with the manuals and stay informed about changes. Some old manual data is dangerous.

    I have been developing loads for 38-44 target (a black powder cartridge) that I want to not use black powder or subs in. I tried Green Dot because I had a lot and have used it for cast bullet mid range loads in a lot of cartridges with great success. I looked at 38 S&W data and 38 Special data and pick a starting load that turned out to be too low. Bullet would not always get out of the barrel. A few more tenths of grains and I was up to more than my hoped-for velocity. It seems like there was a big step up all the sudden. I guess it just would not burn well until the pressure got over some threshold then it started acting normal.

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  7. #47
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    Hodgdon H110 3% warning

    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    And can you please provide the quote from that manual, in full context for us please? A picture would be just as good.
    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    I think I know what manual he is referring to, it's an old one, but it needs the rest of the paragraph for context too.
    I've posted about the 3% warning in the past and sadly I can't find my old post.
    I do know my 2011 Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester manual (that I am holding in my hand right now) has the 3% warning. btw, the pistol load data section only has MAX charges, there is no starting charge, but at the bottom of the data pages, there is the standard statement about Max charges, Do not exceed, reduce by 10% to start.

    The 2011 manual warning doesn't have a paragraph, it's just one sentence. The warning is on the "warnings page" (page 16) and the H110/W296 warning is listed last of the 20 various warnings of all their products.
    H110 and W296 Loads should not be reduced more than 3% due to inconsistency of velocity at the lower pressure.
    My quick internet search, just now, found this warning quote from a seemingly reliable source in a Feb 1, 2018 article. The warning quoted is a full paragraph. The link below also includes a email response from Hodgdon after he send them a query about the 3% confusion.
    H110 Loads should not be reduced more than 3%. Reduce H110 Loads 3% and work up from there. If reduced too much, H110 will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.
    https://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/news.cgi?em=agnews1802
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkP View Post
    Take a few flakes of powder or a few sticks of extruded powder place them on a hard surface such as an anvil and strike with a flat faced hammer. It will sound like a cap gun.

    Ask yourself how could this happen inside of a cartridge?

    Also if you shoot a can filled with smokeless powder with a high velocity round it will go boom just as impressive as tannerite.
    Well I tried hammering H110. Nothing happened. I tried Bluedot, no go. I tried Goex blackpowder, nope no pop there either.

    You are right, I am wondering how a person could use a hammer to hit powder inside of a cartridge. And you are saying that all of this time we could have been shooting our powders as reactive explosive targets? Oh boy, this sure doesn't sound like an internet rumor at all.

  9. #49
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    MSM, the msds for h110 does say its impact sensitive. I haven’t checked every powder but I’m sure a few are.

    About 5 years ago I was fooling around with filling large HP Airgun pellets with powders to make exploding pellets. I don’t think I tried h110. For batches without a priming compound mixed ( 22reloaders mix) in with the gun powder, shotgun powder seemed to work best(loudest) These were just to make a small pop like a small firecracker for fun. I tried bp,
    777, bullseye, reloader25, and whatever flake powder is in federal target loads for skeet. All powders were sealed into the hp with duco cement which is a nitrocellulose adhesive I believe, which may have some effect on the powders but that’s more then I can say.

    The shotgun powder was the loudest to ignite on its own but it’s traveling pretty fast to start. My airgun was set up to push the hybrids @980. All the the powders only worked for me on hard targets like steel. If you shot wood it’s a hit or miss if it goes off or not. I remember I hit a tree trunk past 100 yards or so and you can see little wisps of smoke but I didn’t hear a loud crack like on steel. Priming compounds made the effect more reliable but also seemed to have less noise for some reason.

    Some smokeless powders are definitely impact sensitive. But the conditions required to actually trigger it with an impact is probably way more then you can get with a hammer and anvil by hand. If it was going to go off from the bottle getting shot or dropped during shipping I don’t think it would be up for sale. Shooting a small bottle will definitely NOT have the impact effect as the bullet is just going to slide thru the powder inside the bottle. And a bullet will not get hot enough in the brief moment it’s heated so that it can ignite the powder.

    If your close enough to ignite a bottle with your muzzleblast, then maybe you might lose your eyebrows or get some nasty burns. But I think the boolit hitting the bottle might just open it up enough so that the bottle flash burns instead of explode. You need compression for an explosion, a sealed vessel. You don’t have that with a shot bottle. Even if your close enough to ignite powder with a muzzle. And even then I suspect - it would blow the powder away from itself before it ignites (maybe)


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  10. #50
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    H110/296 ive not had any problems with when loaded mid to upper ranges. When reduced I found greater variations in velocity than I was comfortable with as that indicated pressure variations. Dangerous? No idea but accuracy sucked. Once into mid and upper charges it became much more consistant.
    I now use more Unique and 2400 although now my pistol is not a 44mag but a 45LC. For 300BO H110 works very well
    Last edited by jonp; 08-20-2022 at 04:08 PM.
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  11. #51
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    And can you please provide the quote from that manual, in full context for us please? A picture would be just as good.
    megasupermagnum: And after having seen the various excerpts/quotes provided by others, are you now satisfied that the "3% rule" concerning H110/W296 is neither an internet myth, nor the product of my imagination?
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    megasupermagnum: And after having seen the various excerpts/quotes provided by others, are you now satisfied that the "3% rule" concerning H110/W296 is neither an internet myth, nor the product of my imagination?
    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-reduced-loads

    NO! Do I need to repeat myself....NO! H110 and it's twin, 296, give severe ignition problems with reduced loads. It is an invitation to a SEE. That's why you see all the warnings not to use reduced loads with those powders.

    You don't say what cartridge so can't advise on what to use for a good reduced load.

    Larry Gibson


    This is from a thread on this subject in 2007. Later in the thread it seems Larry is talking more about pistol than rifle. Larry may have changed his mind on this but unless he chimes in and says otherwise I will follow his warning. Larry knows far more than I ever will about reloading, pressure curves etc. All seem to agree that at less than 90% case fill H110/296 becomes quite erratic so there is no reason to try reducing this powder. Use something else to get where you want to go.
    Last edited by jonp; 08-21-2022 at 06:39 AM.
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  13. #53
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    That's easy. It's Trail Boss. Completely useless to me. Another over-hyped powder is Unique. It does a little of everything and nothing I need it to do well.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasGuzzler View Post
    That's easy. It's Trail Boss. Completely useless to me. Another over-hyped powder is Unique. It does a little of everything and nothing I need it to do well.
    Now your just trolling as that is Unique's strongpoint. It is not specific for a use but will work in about everything which is why I have several kegs of it on hand at all times
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  15. #55
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    Hodgdon Superformance.
    Great in the 22-250, but unless I want to chase the .300 H&H with my 30-06- I can't find a use for the pound and a half that I have left over.

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  16. #56
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    I like Larry Gibson, he knows more than me, which isn't hard, and he knows more than most people. Unfortunately what he posted in that 2007 thread is false.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    megasupermagnum: And after having seen the various excerpts/quotes provided by others, are you now satisfied that the "3% rule" concerning H110/W296 is neither an internet myth, nor the product of my imagination?
    You seem to be interpreting it in a different way. The best thing to do is contact Hodgdon and get it straight from their mouth. You called me reckless for using H110 below 3% of max. I'm not the reckless one. You are the one spreading rumors.

  18. #58
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    I got a deal on 32 LBS Keg of Blue Dot a few years back so this motivated me to try it out in a number for cartridges and various loadings. One thing I can tell you is Blue Dot is squirrely or crazy as the op indicated. I like it and use it a lot but it ain't anything like Unique which is linear and predictable. What I saw in 357 Mag was some extremely high pressures randomly for mid-loadings of cast bullets. I actually have a note in my journal where I exclaimed that the powder was Bat SH!T Crazy stuff so I think it supports the title of this thread.

  19. #59
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    I've kind of left this alone, after being tempted a time or two to not, but will make a comment here.

    Every powder I ever tried in any case ever given loading data for in a major company reloading book has never acted "crazy" in my understanding of common definition.

    Do published loads sometimes excessively powder foul? Yes. Do published loads sometimes give pressure signs early in some guns, or give signs of sudden pressure increase if you add a grain over published (2-5%)? Yes. Do some powders have a harder time igniting in some cartridges than others? Yes. Etc.
    None of these observations make a powder "crazy" in my mind. All this is common findings given variables in application and specific use (different things here).

    All published data is a set of recommendations on a broad range of application given a certain set of suitability factors that the testing body uses. They don't use your gun nor control a host of other factors many of us 'mix in' to our experiences.
    For example, don't blame a powder for early pressure signs if you change the bullet manufacturer / design and keep the bullet weight the same. Some bullets of differing designs at equal weight give very different pressure curves in some cartridges. I believe that Most manufactures tend to integrate specific design features into differing bullet constructions to lessen these characteristics, but it doesn't always work out. I wouldn't pick up a DG caliber and think I can directly work up a load w/ a cast bullet and then switch to a monolithic solid from Barnes or Woodleigh. Might work 1:1, might well be a problem to swap the data rather than use one for Guidance on the other (which I have done and will do again).

    W296/H110: If you look in the Hornady 9th edition loading manual at handgun cartridges from 35-50 caliber, the spread from start charge to max charge in most listed applications using W296 is =/>10%, and some times ~20%. These would NOT be published unless they met criteria set by Hornady for suitable use.
    Do not confuse volume of fill with % reduction in charge. Many top W296 loads w/ handgun cartridges are compressed. 100% fill or 105% fill is still a full case. In other words, if you see a start charge 10% under max, and max is 105% volumetric fill, that start charge is not 90% case fill. It is ~95%.
    BTW: If I remember right, Accurate 11FS is functionally equal W296/H110. The specification for that powder falls entirely within specification for W296/H110, so count it same.

    Trailboss: perfect for what it is. I have some very suitable uses for it. Do I buy it every time I see a can? No. Do I use it in 30-06 hunting loads or a 7 Ultra Mag? No. Do I find it a great fireforming powder in several cartridges I have? Yes.

    "Pressure Signs" are sometimes referred to in this thread and others. I have seen real excess pressure signs during load development, and false ones. Sometimes it can be hard to sort out the false, especially in a revolver.
    Unless you have pressure equipment, you never KNOW what the pressure is. I have had primers crack a number of times in a 416 wildcat I did off a 30-40 Krag for a M95 Steyr, when models say it should be 40K psi. Do I forge ahead? No, I stop using that load because the primer failed, but I don't really Know what happened. Maybe I had a box of primers w/ a few of the thousand which had brittle cups. Maybe the model is wrong. Maybe... I know I just use something else and move on.

    Use any powder outside of suitability range and you might think it terrible, but it might just not be ideal for what you want.

    Experienced people develop bias too. Well meaning experienced people. I have a terrific friend who really knows handloading very well (taught me), and hates IMR3031. I find it great now, after I got a cartridge that really needs its characteristics. Do I use it in everything a book says it's OK in? No. I use it where it meets a performance need.

    There is a reason that loading manuals only list a limited number of powders against a bullet in a cartridge, and these reasons go beyond economics or publishing deadlines. Use what they recommend, and if you find something "crazy" I would look other places than the powder for explanation of behavior.

    Go off the reservation for loading data, and you are on your own and should blame no one for problems, least of which the powder manufacturer. Doesn't matter where the powder falls in a burning rate chart. Burning rate charts are developed in a CLOSED vessel: i.e. Not the same as firing a cartridge as there is No bullet traveling down a bore constantly increasing the available expansion volume at a rate that varies w/ bore size and bullet acceleration rate.
    Can you often get away with powder substitution based on a burning rate chart? Quite likely. You will however Never Know your operating pressure.
    Can you use a burning rate chart w/ a bit of judgement to select a suitable powder for a cartridge where there is no published data? Maybe, depends on how much you know. Might get you in trouble, or help you '...gain experience...' as it has done for me a time or two.

  20. #60
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    I'm with MSM on this. I just hit the Hodgdon online site and pulled data from on of my favorite cartridges..357 magnum. I pulled 8 random loads out of the dozen or so listed with H110. None of the starting loads were lower than 10.7%.
    105gr raptor 20% from start to max
    120 lgh xd 14.375
    125xpb 15.38
    140 ftx 20.8
    140 xtp 11.1
    158 xtp 11.3
    165 ceb 12.8
    170 sie jhp 10.7

    So.. Not even hodgdon does the 3%....

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check