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Thread: Recoil is the enemy of accuracy.

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    I think there is truth on both sides of the argument. Yes, heavier recoil does require more discipline to be equally accurate. So in a sense, recoil does effect accuracy. It can however be overcome and be a non issue.

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I would phrase it thus. "Excessive Recoil is the enemy of accuracy".

    If it is causing you to flinch, you are not going to hit what you are aiming at.
    Pistol or rifle make little difference.

    I am vastly more accurate with a .32sw long than a 9mm or a .45acp or a .357mag.
    I throttle my .444marlin rounds down to moderate .44mag levels and see increased accuracy.
    For punching paper I simply do not need more.

    The vast majority of wild Buffalo were shot with black powder and large cast boolits at 1200- 1400 fps. Those would go through a buff the LONG way.

    IMO if you have confidence in your load, know that it won't hurt you, and know what the trajectory curve looks like. You have at least the potential for much greater accuracy.

    As a 135 lb dripping wet kid I had the chance to drop the hammer on a 35 weatherby magnum once.

    I did so, picked myself up off my butt. Handed him back his gun and thanked him for the experience. (Never to be repeated BTW)
    He thanked me for not dropping his gun. We both walked away a little wiser.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy
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    A few years back, I was testing and working on loads for my winchester 1886 45-70 with 325 grain bullets, and my winchester 71 348 with 200 grain bullets, both off the bench. The 1886 has the crescent butt.
    Time was short for testing, and I fired 75 rounds of each, at just about full power, in around 4 hours. I found the accuracy I wanted with the 45-70, but could maybe do a little better with the 348.
    After a few rounds I really had to concentrate to take my mind off the recoil.
    About 16 months ago, for no apparent reason, I developed shoulder problems, which appears to be a torn rotator cuff. It has been misery, but finally the pain has subsided and I have more movement in my arm, although substantially weakened.
    After all that ammo testing, I will not be shooting these loads anymore, and will be lowering velocity to something more sensible.
    I often read about people looking for and wanting to shoot high velocity loads in the 45-70, which now seems pure madness. Never again.
    When I get back to the range its the 22-250 and 30-30 at low velocity, and anything 308 and above, is staying at home for the near future, its just not worth the pain and the agony.

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    laying over rifle as if prone or even more on bench,
    Unfortunately, the way most range benches are set up.
    I love shooting at the slymore, Ar range, swing out seat, good table height and position.
    Whatever!

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy todd9.3x57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    I throttle my .444marlin rounds down to moderate .44mag levels and see increased accuracy.
    For punching paper I simply do not need more.
    my 444 is a tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel. it will do a 300gr saeco fn gc with 2400/tuft of dacron at 1624fps. i have killed (20 thru 60yards) 7 or 8 deer with it. i have used 275gr ranch dogs with h4198 that go in excess of 2300fps. i have killed deer too, but the exit wound was like hamburger. i'm going to use a 280gr wfn gc with rel7 that goes 1937fps. i water quenched the lyman #2 boolit. i guessing that its around 18 -20bhn? but i don't know. its the first time i ever had water quenching the boolit.

    i have a win m94 in 35/30-30 that uses a (lyman #2 and a skosh of tin) 200gr rcbs fn gc with 2400/tuft of dacron that goes 1726fps. i have killed (20-50 yards) 3 or 4 deer with it.

    i use a Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57 with a 275gr wfn gc and imr4895 that goes about 1700-1800+/-fps(i forgot the chrony). its killed (20-60 yards) about 3 or 4 deer too.


    when i use 2400 or 4895, recoil does not cause me problems. it's a wussy load, i know. but why bother to speed it up? i shoot deer at under 60 yards and after the shot the deer will either DRT or go about 20-30 yards and give up the ghost.

    if i shoot at a deer that is over 150 yards away, i'll use my ruger #1 in 270 with 140gr hornady sst. for under 150 yards, its cast boolits and wussy loads. i use wussy loads because of my stroke(right arm/leg are kaput). but i can use warm loads too. the 444 load (280gr wfn gc and rel7) isn't a wussy load or a warm load. it "kicks" like a 8lb 30-06 with 180gr factory loads and that is good enuff for me.

    i had about 25-30 bullets of .429" 200gr hornady xtp, so i loaded my 444 up with trail boss and then i shot them at 50 yard target. it grouped like 2 1/2" at 50 yards with all 25-30 cartridges fired. the recoil was that of a 22lr. that got me thinking of mild loads for deer. 20-25 deer later, i'm glad i did!!! cast boolits with a mild load equals dead deer. i shoot the deer behind the front shoulder and it is thru-n-thru. 20-25 dead deer with no recovered boolits is a good deal for me and the rifles.
    "The price of cowardice will only be evil. We shall reap courage and victory only when we dare to make sacrifices." ~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  6. #26
    Boolit Master Rapier's Avatar
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    Several practices you might try to improve your groups and accuracy at distance.

    Rifle team trigger practice. load two dummies bullets, no powder or primers, three loaded rounds. Mix them have second person load them in the mag.
    Aim small miss small practice, use the corner of a square with a scope. Verticle to vertical, horizontal to horizontal, hair of light, practice looking at the scope not the target, just like an open sight. 100% filled view, always.
    Never rely on the box adjustments, get your load and shoot to get your “actual” click adjustments. Then range the target.
    Put range adjustments @25 yard increments on the front bell with a packing tape cover.
    Practice reading the wind and the mirage.
    Adjust sights always, what adjustments are for, adjusting.
    Last edited by Rapier; 08-04-2022 at 04:04 PM.
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  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy 405grain's Avatar
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    The hardest recoiling rifle that I've ever fired was a Winchester model 70 in 358 Norma Magnum. This particular rifle kicked significantly more than a 458 Winchester magnum that was built on the same action. The reason that the 358 was such a torture devise was the stock configuration, coupled with a steel butt plate. There was more drop at the comb on the 358, so the recoil energy wasn't straight back, but instead it was acting like a prybar levering against your face as it tried to crush your shoulder joint. This wasn't my rifle: it belonged to a buddy of mine. He asked me to help him sight it in because he was an older guy and it was just too punishing for him to shoot more than 2 or 3 times. He'd previously asked another friend to assist him, and that guy got a cut through the eyebrow from the scope on the first shot, and decided that was enough!

    I got his rifle on paper, but was only able to get a 3" to 4" group. The rifle was no doubt capable of better accuracy, but under those conditions I wasn't. The next morning I was staring in the bathroom mirror at an ugly bruise all over my right shoulder. It was not a fun experience. What I learned from this was that the configuration of the stock has a direct influence on felt recoil, and when a rifle's putting the hurt on you it's all but impossible to shoot decent groups. Fortunately, to the best of my knowledge the rifle's owner never took it hunting. It turned into a safe queen and he decided to use a 30-30 instead.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Now the question is, what have we learned from this thread? Have we learned anything new?
    That is the way I like to look at threads. I am always on the lookout for more knowledge.
    What have the posters learned?
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    Now the question is, what have we learned from this thread? Have we learned anything new?
    That is the way I like to look at threads. I am always on the lookout for more knowledge.
    What have the posters learned?
    and maybe what have the lurkers learned from the poster's knowledge?

    Tim
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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  10. #30
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    I skimmed the replies and totally agree with excessive recoil being possibly detrimental to accuracy (assuming the firearm is more than capable of excellent accuracy).

    I would add that a crisp, light to moderate trigger pull is also a major factor in how well a given shooter is accurate with a given firearm.

    Case in point: A friend fired my Dan Wesson 1911 in 45 ACP. It has a proverbial "glass rod" let off after a 4.0 lb trigger force is applied. He had no problem hitting what he aimed at with it.

    He buys his own 1911, a Springfield Armory "GI" model, and had accuracy trouble right out of the box. The gun had a creepy 7.8 lb trigger pull; it was difficult to sense when the hammer was going to fall. I worked on the trigger pull and removed virtually all creep and reduced the pull to ~4.5 lbs and it transformed the pistol for him. No problems busting claybirds standing on edge at the 25 yd berm, just like he did with my DW.

    Same style gun - 1911, same 45 ACP cartridge, but one had a trigger pull almost twice that of the other until worked over, with poor accuracy until the pull was cleaned up and reduced.

    If I dry fire a firearm and watch the sights when the hammer or striker falls, if the sights don't shift and stay aligned for me that firearm will usually be accurate (if the bore / crown are good and the ammo is "tuned" to the weapon). If the trigger has creep and is heavy, the sights generally shift as I "pull" the "shot."

    Twenty or 25 yrs ago I owned a Walther P5 that had a horrible pull and I had problems hitting anything at any distance. I didn't get the chance to work the trigger and sold it. Two years ago I found another P5, as new in box with four mags, and it had a Dan Wesson-like pull. It shoots as if laser-guided.

    Noah

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    I've fired some heavy recoil rifles. If I wanted one for hunting I am sure I could use it well. But, now days I just shoot at the range, and usually 50-100 rounds a day. Heavy recoil is just not something I enjoy for that many shots.

    With milder recoil I can shoot many more rounds accurately than I can with heavier recoil. Just a matter of fatigue and maintaining concentration.

    So, for long range I shoot a 6BR and for more fun I shoot cast in the .308.

  12. #32
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    here is a great way to find out about flinch........if its your buddy you suspect,all the better,if its you,not so much....get the suspect to shoot at target as per normal BUT get someone else to take fired rifle and reload it for them and then hand it back ready to go..do this 3-4-5 times then instead of a live round,slip in an empty case..... the resounding click while the muzzle is jerked up/down or sideways is absolutely priceless.....and it makes shooter AWARE of what they are doing....accepting the dreaded "starts with F and rhymes with grinch" is first step to beating it..... and its a hard road to follow.

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy Big Tom's Avatar
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    I have a different experience. When I was shooting 25 yard bullseye precision international competitions many years ago, the .22 LR was the hardest and the larger the caliber, the tighter the grouping. Human factor with not liking recoil/loud bang, causing flinching of course is becoming a larger factor when shooting bigger calibers.

    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I could not find a sub-forum on shooting so since this is the most popular sub-forum, I am putting this here.

    It is my experience that more recoil means less accuracy. Sometimes it is a trade-off because higher velocity means less drop and less wind deflection but as a rule the more it kicks the harder it is to shoot accurately.

    Tim
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  14. #34
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  15. #35
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    I had the pleasure of shooting a long range 300 Win Mag equipped with a JP Recoil Eliminator. It was accurate and the recoil was so mild that shooting dozens of rounds in an afternoon was easy.
    Sometimes life taps you on the shoulder and reminds you it's a one way street. Jim Morris

  16. #36
    It is my understanding and belief that recoil happens after the trigger is manipulated. Therefore it shouldn't affect the shot at all. However, anticipation of recoil is a whole other thing, and that is what is being discussed above. In my limited shooting experience, if paper punching, plinking then recoil can be managed. I was told by a wise man that your CORRECT grip on the firearm only happens after the first shot, which then gets adjusted to manage the recoil better. Just my opinion

  17. #37
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    I like a crisp hair trigger. Having to apply more and more pressure will cause me to flinch sometimes.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy caster View Post
    It is my understanding and belief that recoil happens after the trigger is manipulated. Therefore it shouldn't affect the shot at all. However, anticipation of recoil is a whole other thing, and that is what is being discussed above. In my limited shooting experience, if paper punching, plinking then recoil can be managed. I was told by a wise man that your CORRECT grip on the firearm only happens after the first shot, which then gets adjusted to manage the recoil better. Just my opinion
    Yes, recoil happens after the trigger is pulled but it happens before the bullet leaves the barrel. If you don't have a consistent grip on the gun shot to shot, there will be an adverse effect on accuracy.
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    After 38 posts how many will disagree with me or agree with me that handling recoil is in the mind and to learn to handle it one has to experience it?
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 08-07-2022 at 01:47 PM.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy todd9.3x57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    After 38 posts how many will disagree with me or agree with me that handling recoil is in the mind and to learn to handle it one has to experience it?

    yeah, i kinda agree with that.

    i have a friend who is 6'5" and weighs about 280lbs and he is scared to death of a 30-30 because it "kicks" too much. he uses a rem m700 bdl in 243.

    i know there is somewhere a woman or a girl that is 5' nuthin and weighs about 100-110lbs that just luvs her 375 H&H and recoil doesn't bother her.

    "back in the day," when i was young and dumb and doing somethings for my gunsmith(RIP) that included shooting a customer's rifle in because "it wasn't accurate or some other bull-puckey." he gave me a Weatherby mark 5, i think, in 460 Weatherby mag and a box of cartridges. he tells me something like "go to the range, shoot it 5 times at the target, bring the gun and the target back." so i did and it was 1 1/4 - 3/8"(i think) at 100 yards/bench and 5 shots. by the way, i was in a standing only bench that the gunsmith made up and there was 3 sandbags/ 1 at the back and 2 in the front. that rifle "kicked" and when was done at target range, my shoulder was quickly becoming black and blue. the gunsmith told and showed the customer what i did, but he just didn't believe me and he and the gun both walked out.

    i liked shooting the 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby. recoil was stout, but manageable. heck i even did a 458 win mag one time and again, recoil was stout, but manageable. my gunsmith had a 375 wildcat that was based off the 404 Jefferies. after fire-forming, it almost looked like 375 H&H mag but without the belt. i just can't remember the name.......
    "The price of cowardice will only be evil. We shall reap courage and victory only when we dare to make sacrifices." ~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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