Cost and Productivity of producing .224 bullets at lowest cost

[BT Sniper]

OK..... I can hear you say again.... "WHAT, YOU DON'T ANNEAL THE 22LR JACKET IN THIS PROCESS!"

Nope! The 22lr when used as a jacket is, as far as I know, is the thinnest jacket out there on a 22 cal bullet, so it doesn't require a lot of pressure to form into a bullet. What the annealing and softening the jacket dose do is allow use to form the 55 grain bullets without the nose of the bullet folding over on it's self. You see, the top of the jacket above the lighter 45 grain seated lead core is unsupported initially in the point forming step and if it is not annealed it will fold. BUT!!!!! when we seat a 58-59 grain lead core it nearly fills the entire jacket supporting it all the way to the tip. The jacket cannot fold in on it's self because the heavier lead core is preventing it. You do wind up with a lead tipped SP with a weight of 69 grains but who cares!! We made them quickly and results where perfect and they shoot very well for me.

For those of you that have seen what a 55 grain bullet made from this jacket will do to a sage rat at 3000fps.......... you should see what a soft lead tipped 69 grain bullet at the same FPS will do to them in this thin jacket. It is even better!

I posted all this info with pics a few years ago. I'll see if I can find it here and post a link.....


So..... Can one make enough bullets to recover the initial investment of the equipment, most definitely! Can one make bullets quickly and cheaply....... maybe..... refer back to previous saying in last post regarding fast vs cheap. Can one ever recover the hours of labor it takes to make your own vs. the money spent to buy commercial..... that depends on how much money you got vs. how much time you have and how expensive commercial bullets get. Can one turn a profit selling swaged bullets........Hum?????? depends on demand I guess. If current political factors continue on same course, one might be able to trade bullets for ...........!!!! We haven't even mentioned the bullets that are "really easy" to make yet expensive commercially. Priced a .500 cal 350 grain XTP bullet lately? $1 a piece! I can make them for the cost of a scrap 45 ACP case and a 255 grain 45 cal cast boolits! Or the 40 cal from 9mm, the 44 from 40s&w, and on and on and on

As it has been said above, swaging can be a challenge, an investment, and can take a lot of time vs buying commercial bullets, but some of us enjoy the challenge and satisfaction. Some of us chose not to invest in another AR-15 or March scope to go with the rest of the gun in the safe (I bet anyone that has ever got sticker shock at the cost of a set of swage dies as a gun in the safe that costs more), and instead invest in a set of swage dies.

Anyway..... let me see if I can find some pics and threads to back all this up

I say good shooting and swage on!

Anything is possible!

BT

[BT Sniper]

Don't miss the video link at bottom of thread!

Pic of the 69 grain bullet made from the process described above.......




Got a target, maybe a pic here somewhere of these bullets with 5 shot group at or under 1/2MOA


Small pile of 53 grain bullets from 22lr brass....




Small pile of cores and mold......





2 liter pop bottle full of derimed 22lr brass and what looks like a two or three gallon bag full. I figured about 3,000 jackets in the 2 liter bottle. Bottle is placed on top of die while you derim each case pases through die into bottle. When bottle is full replace cap to keep clean till ready to use. Simple!




Some of my groups, I got a lot more pics on the computer and scattered throughout the forums here. These are just what I could quickly find of bullets made from 22lr brass...

BTSimple dies 22 cal bullets








BTSniper premium dies 22 cal bullets. This 5 shot group was shot with max load of H335 @3500FPS in 12 twist barrel. A proof of accuracy group and FPS testing. Wouldn't be a load I would shoot all day in ground squirrel field but accurate none the less!









20 cal bullet group at 200 yrds!






22lr bullet accuracy threads and pics....

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...acy&highlight=

post #142 for pics of targets in the first postal shoot thread with bullets from rim jackets...

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-welcome/page8


post number 180 with pics of targets from 2nd postal shoot with bullets made from rimmed cases

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...welocme!/page9


Video of 22 cal bullets vs. sage rats. 55 grains at 3300FPS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50qH...l=BTSniper1911

[dverna]

BT

Thanks for your posts on this thread. Very informative.

Making the 69 gr bullet becomes an attractive option as there are no "cheap" bullets in that weight range and it is an easier process. I am going to "put numbers to paper" later as I have to leave shortly for an appointment shortly.

[Ajax111]

I went out tonight and made a handful of bullets according to BT'S suggestions.
Lot faster than I normally take, and the bullets looks good.

[BT Sniper]

Cool! Glad I could be of help.

69 grains?

Post a pick if you can there Ajax of your bullets.


I only tried this technique at 69-70 grains, but it might work for a lighter bullet too. I know at a certain weight, maybe about 60-65 grains the lead tip is pretty small and may not be able to support the force of ejecting from the die without deforming the lead tip. I don't know at what weight the jacket will not be supported enough and fold in on itself either, I just know that 69 grains was good to go. I found that at 69 grains there was enough lead at the tip that it didn't deform. One could certainly use a slightly harder alloy lead (if they cast their cores) to allow the lead tip to support itself from ejection from the die. Or if one has a lead tip die of course.

I read a commit once that you don't want too much lead at the tip. It was mentioned the lead tip could possibly "droop" in flight? I don't know the validity or background of the one that mentioned it and I can't confirm this but ...... I know darn well that these 69 grain bullets I made where very accurate on paper at 125 yrds when I tested them and scored a LOT of hits on ground squirrels pout to 300 yrds and more.

I shoot these from a 12 twist 223rem with no problems in accuracy or stability. I thought the slower twist may have stability issues but nope! Certainly a 69 grain bullet should shoot well or better in a typical 9 twist.

There is one additional possible advantage, not just in saving time but possible increase in accuracy too. Since we didn't anneal these jackets they are all exactly the same hardness, as in uniform, all the same as they came from manufacture. It can be a challenge to get a perfect anneal of every single case unless you have a good oven and consistent technique. Skipping the anneal step may just eliminate a variable.

I do know that annealing jackets too much creates a lot of challenges. Long ago I cooked over 1,000 perfect 6mm jackets made from 22 mag brass that got too soft. I used open flame in a gutted BBQ grill and cooked them way too much. These jackets are way too soft and hard to make proper bullets with. It is my opinion after that, that a jacket is better to be a little on the hard side then soft. I now only use my gas cooking oven (set on self cleaning so it reaches 800 degrees) to anneal my jackets made from rim cases. I get very good results annealing this way now.

Swage on!

BT

[Ajax111]

Good morning BT,
Yes it was 69 gr. I normally make and shoot 62 gr.(1in7twist) If they are not annealed, I have roll over.
So, there might be a middle ground of 65 or 66 that would work.
About the picture, I'm just smart enough to pull a trigger. I have no clue about a camera

[BT Sniper]

No problem with a pic, I understand, me too. Just glad to hear it worked well for you. Skipping the annealing step alone can save a lot of time.

Swage on!

BT

[Ajax111]

I played with some lower weight bullets. 68gr is about as low as I can make this way.
The 69 looks better. I'm going to load a batch and try them.
Thank you for showing a faster way.
I'm really new at this, others may have better luck.

[sukivel]

BT,

Are you doing this entire process with just your BTsimple 3 die set?

I really like those 69 grainers…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[firefly1957]

Don Verna I am 65 years old and also in Northern Michigan I have a old set of swage dies of unknown make They are made to work in a Pacific press a newer reloading press needs the ram modified .
A few years ago I ran A test of 500 bullets I sent a guy to experiment with and if I did not count wasted time like time in the oven (650 degrees) or time cleaning I ended up with about an hour per hundred bullets . That included the time to form the .185" lead wire, cut the wire to size, Clean the cases after baking, and form the bullets . I bake the cases in a very hot toaster oven for an hour at 650* this softens them and ignites the unspent priming compound ,Believe it or not not all the priming ignites when the case fires. I do get some folded points they shoot well enough for my three guns and are heck on vermin.

Generally I have a three grain variance in weight just cutting the cores I have found it best to keep brass types separate and Federal cases seem to work the best. I do not know if you have looked closely but not all .22 rimfire cases are the same length . I have made bullets from 35 to 70 grains Experimenting with 40 grains accuracy seems to drop around 3500 f/s from a 1-12 twist barrel on the other hand the same bullets put in sabots shot very well when loaded over 4000 f/s in a 30-06.

[bigjake]

Can you use wheel weight lead for the cores? I have hundreds of lbs. it.

[firefly1957]

Can you use wheel weight lead for the cores? I have hundreds of lbs. it.

My first tests where with wheel weight alloy the bullets tended to fragment more then soft lead cores . They did shoot well and form well some say a hard lead can crack dies I have seen nothing like that I have even ran some copper wire in the die without an issue . There was not enough force to fully form the copper .

I also have Pacific dies made for forming half jacket pistol bullets that work fine with wheel weight alloy in .452" & .357". The 38 caliber nose forming die was damaged by a hard alloy . These dies do work well without the half jackets I often powder coat and bake the cores then swage then to size . I have found even a cast .30 caliber bullet can be swaged to .452" if the coating is applied properly.

[BT Sniper]

BT,

Are you doing this entire process with just your BTsimple 3 die set?

I really like those 69 grainers…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The BTSimple set of dies would certainly work in the process I described. They work on same principle anyway with no core swage. All one needs is a mold to drop cores at around 58-59 grains then no anneal is necessary no matter which set of dies one uses.

I was using my premium dies but the large meplat of the BTSimple dies would work even better to keep the lead tip from deforming.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Can you use wheel weight lead for the cores? I have hundreds of lbs. it.

Sure, in smaller calibers.

As a manufacture I recommend mixing 50-50 with pure and wheel weights but I have used straight wheel weight alloy in past with just as good accuracy. When it comes to making lead tipped bullets a harder alloy makes better lead tips anyways.

[Sasquatch-1]

My first tests where with wheel weight alloy the bullets tended to fragment more then soft lead cores . They did shoot well and form well some say a hard lead can crack dies I have seen nothing like that I have even ran some copper wire in the die without an issue . There was not enough force to fully form the copper .

I have broken a die while reforming a .357 diameter bullet from a semi wadcutter to a wadcutter using harder lead. That was about 10 years ago and the lesson cost me about $120.00. I can do it, but I don't try to do it in one stroke of the handle.

[firefly1957]

I have broken a die while reforming a .357 diameter bullet from a semi wadcutter to a wadcutter using harder lead. That was about 10 years ago and the lesson cost me about $120.00. I can do it, but I don't try to do it in one stroke of the handle.

You are not the first one I have seen say the same it is normally from improper heat treatment of the die they can be as brittle as glass in such a case.

[ETG]

Hello BT.
It’s been a long time since I have been on here. One thing about making your own bullies is you do not have to be at the mercy of supply or bans or anything else that makes the supply dry up. At least here, there is an endless supply of 22LR to pick up in the desert Many years ago I posted how to make a lead wire extruded using a Harbor Freight 20 ton press. Squirting the lead out and slicing into cores is a heck of a lot faster and more accurate than casting them. I,m pretty sure Larry Blackmon isn’t selling his press and die kits anymore. It was about a year wait back in 06 and he said then he was getting out of the die business. One thing I have not read here velocity limits on the bullets. I have never seen the damage a bullet made from 22s will do at 3000 fps. That is because the ones I have made vaporize in a puff of smoke once you get much above 2700-2800 fps. I guess I didn’t use the right cases. You can go pretty fast with Blackmon dies and press. If you could lay your hands on a setup from him I would grab it. Hard to put a price on the satisfaction of making your own. The old saying I remember is: fast, cheap, quality - pick any two.

[Sasquatch-1]

You are not the first one I have seen say the same it is normally from improper heat treatment of the die they can be as brittle as glass in such a case.

The die cracked right at the bleed holes. I was using range scrap from an outdoor range and the lead was in the 18 to 22 bhn range. As soon as I started pulling the handle, I knew I made a mistake. Now when reforming I will pull the handle down in steps and release two to three times.

[Ajax111]

ETG,
Where would I find the thread on the wire making equipment?

[firefly1957]

ETG,
Where would I find the thread on the wire making equipment?

I looked though swaging and even did a search and came up blank here on castboolits a switch to search engine Start page gave me this result I am reply #8 this is my equipment :


I find cutting cores up to 5?16" works well above that they do not cut with constant weight!

Image would not post???