Wiring Suggestions Needed

[Noah Zark]

Well don't tell my house that it won't work , it hasn't figured that out yet and I'd hate to over educate it and cause it to start voting democrat

It works in your house because the neutral and ground are tied together either in the breaker panel or someplace along the way in the house (not preferable at all). Common in older houses, but not all localities permit that, especially those who have rigid and vigorous code enforcement.

Noah

[redneck1]

Gee , I guess us people out in the nether region's who aren't electricians and follow the code by bonding nuetral with the ground at the service panel are doing things all wrong and need hooked up to them new fangled electrons that flow in New and improved ways .

Now do tell how those electrons I'm backfeeding care if that wire is supposed to be nuetral or ground ?

And yea I know the e and u are transposed , I'm to lazy to fix it .

[Noah Zark]

Not at all what I am saying. I live in the sticks too.

It works for you because of the bonded neutral and ground. It won't work that well for homeowners whose electrical contractors followed the recent versions of the NEC when installing the service and did not bond neutral to ground. Like a former co-worker, who fried his $1800 refrigerator. All I'm saying is one size doesn't fit all when it comes to feeding 220V from a two-wire-and-ground generator outlet.

Noah

[Half Dog]

Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts. It looks like I’ll be looking for a transfer switch.

[bedbugbilly]

Sometimes the price of hiring a professional is money well spent to make sure an installation is done correctly and according to Code. As a former firefighter as well as having worked fire.rescue, I have been on more than one "run" for house fires as well as rescues where someone had cobbled up wiring who "thought" the knew what they were doing" - and unfortunately, at least two involved electrocutions. If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing the right way. Your home, your appliances are all "investments" that you have worked hard to get . . . . and you family members are irreplaceable . . . . . so don't take "shortcuts".

[Rich/WIS]

Added a Generac 13KW during a remodel back in 2003, runs on propane and kicks in atomatically30 seconds after it senses power loss. Came with the appropriate power transfer switch, all wiring for the electrical connections and clear and easy to follow installation instructions. IIRC cost back then wqs about $2500. Runs rhe well (220V),gas and outdoor wood furnaces and a few lights and recptacles in the house and kitchen, but not connected to the other 220V items such as electric stove/ovens or clothes dryer. Will cycle once a week to exercise itself.

[farmbif]

neutral and ground both end up in the same place in every installation ive ever seen just two separate wires that eventually end up in the ground,.
but I'm no electrician only know from looking that wiring that electricians have done. running a generator adds up real quick with $4 gal gas.

[Half Dog]

Costs? I have briskets in the freezer.

How often do you turn your generators on and for how long? Right now I’m mostly concerned about the frozen/cold food storage.

[Hossfly]

Once a week for 12 min. Is what mine is set to test, and you cant defeat that except turn it off. It will show and defects such as battery problems. And give diff color light if needs attn.

[.429&H110]

It's always cheaper to do it right the first time.

Fairbanks AK routinely loses power, so everybody has a generator.

Nobody mentioned: Don't run it in the garage with the door closed!
Just saying. There is one in every crowd, even in Fairbanks.
Every time the lights go out you can expect a casualty report.

Working propane service, I met a lot of neat propane rigs, professionally installed.
Propane is the "best" standby because it keeps. But how much is in your tank?
City gas is cheap, already to go, but will the utility keep it coming SHTF?
Diesel fuel keeps well with preservative.
Modern gasoline is not a good small engine fuel.
The stuff is like paint thinner with varnish in it.

When the lights go out, and stay out, so do the fuel trucks and gas stations.
Do you have fuel for a day, week, month, or year?

[BLAHUT]

Be safe put in a transfer switch if you put in hole house go with lp fuel does not go bad>

[Winger Ed.]

Costs? How often do you turn your generators on and for how long? Right now I’m mostly concerned about the frozen/cold food storage.

The refrigerators are our big concern too.
We have one of the dual fuel ones that's I think a 7500 watt. The plan is to run it a a couple hours every few hours.
It uses about a gallon an hour of fuel. I've accumulated 10 of those swap out at the store size tanks.
Then there's the gasoline option if I run out of those. Along with a few gas cans I rotate out to the truck and lawn mower,
I keep a 12V electric pump to suck gas out of the cars and boat.

I run it a hour or so every year.
If the battery ever konks out, I can jump it off the car, borrow the lawn tractor battery, or even rope start it.

It didn't hit us, but the power company that supplies folks a short distance away had an outage that was for four days.
That's the longest I've seen here. I figure I can make it if that happens to us on just propane.

[gc45]

So guys, there is a big difference between Neutral and Ground. I will attempt to show those differences here.

Neutral (or the white wire) is referred to in design terms as "The Grounded Conductor". It is this Grounded Conductor that allows the home to have both 230v and 125v. The reason Neutral is important for most all systems is the fact that if Neutral is disconnected or should fail, say at the meter or panel, or any sub-service down stream, your 125v circuits will go to 230v and will cause you lots of trouble..Neutral is always needed for lights, outlets and any other loads that run on 125v..Lose the Neutral and things like radios, tvs, lights and other can be seriously damaged or ruined..Never ever disconnect this Conductor (white) with the power on. If needing to do so, be sure all loads are turned off first and no current flows..

Additionally, Neutral also carries all unbalanced loads meaning; the house or farm has a 230v service, if one hot leg has 50 amperes load, the other hot leg has 40 amperes, the neutral will be carrying 10 amperes load and this folks can kill if touching the uninsulated wire ends. Some think the Neutral is not dangerous but they are wrong! Disconnected Neutrals on energized systems are trouble, so be aware if you take on working with this stuff! It takes just 0.6 amperes to cause heart failure in some folks, let that not be you!

The Ground wire in the Service and in branch circuits is called "The Grounding Conductor"
this wire is generally seen when above the ground as Green is color or bare copper. Some cases the Ground is Black and wrapped with Green tape on the ends. Regardless of colors it is used throughout as a Bond to help in short circuits where equipment fails and can cause things that are current carriers like metal from becoming energized and hurting someone. Example: years back, things like drills and power saws had metal cases and their motors could fail, short out and energize the metal case and injure some one. Now they are cased in plastic that is a non-current carrier and much safer..If having a lathe or other power equipment always be sure the exterior is well grounded. Household appliances are metal so be sure to always connect the Grounding Wire properly or your Wife could have frizzed hair!

Now, at the Main Service, both the Neutral and ground wires are landed on the neutral bar or other screwed on terminal block but the result is the same. There is, or should be a Ground Rod outside with its own ground wire coming into the panel and connected to the Neutral Bar..This allows any faults that travel via the Ground wires to "go to Ground" via the Ground Rod and not back to the power company equipment via the Neutral Wire, etc...

Main Panels with sub-panel feeders going to say, out buildings, barns etc use a 4-wire feeder of 2 Hots, one Neutral and one Ground Conductor. The last two wires are not connected together inside the sub panel but rather the Neutral is "floated" and does not touch the panel metal or Ground wire. This is done by not installing the Sub Panels Neutral Ground Screw and also by adding a separate Ground bar that is mechanically bonded to the panel. this method prevents shorts or faults traveling back on the sub panels Neutral Conductor to the Main Panel. Another story yes but you get the idea...Wire that outbuilding incorrectly and you could have "voltage or faults" running on the Neutral. There is more to this but you get the idea...It is good to consult local authorities as to proper code for your area on outbuildings...hope this helps someone but if only one, it was worth the time to write it!

[lightman]

Just curious what a whole house generator has cost those who have them? Still using a portable unit that really is inadequate.

When I retired (read that as no longer having a bucket truck in the driveway) 7 years ago I bought a 22 KW Generac. A local farm store had them for right at $5000 including a transfer switch and a concrete pad. That was a very good price at that time and I would expect that unit to be a good bit more now.

[MrWolf]

Once a week for 12 min. Is what mine is set to test, and you cant defeat that except turn it off. It will show and defects such as battery problems. And give diff color light if needs attn.

Mine runs every Wednesday around 1:00 pm. I bought this back in 2018 from Costco.
HONEYWELL 20KW STANDBY GENERATOR W/ TRANSFER SWITC
Item # *1117344*
$ 3,699.99
Had it wired by an electrician who also ran about 75' to my garage and wired a panel there plus an outside rv panel for around $2,500 if I remember right.

[Brokenbear]

Yes to the transfer switch ..it is not even an option ..
In my absence even my electronics challenged wife can understand and easily affect the change over
My Champion 9500W electric start inverter gen set is in a portable storage shed sized to hold 2 BIG trash cans ..the flex tube exhaust runs out the side through triple wall stove pipe and turns upward clamped to a "T" post with a flapper cap on top ..this sits 60' from my house
I have a garden hose reel mounted in the "gen shed" with a 75' cord that reaches my outside's locking covered receptical
I have a vertical mounted screened vent intake louvered low on one end and a powered shuttered exaust fan on the other end ..the set up draws air across the equipment very nicely..
I did not wire to run AC (but could)
An INVERTER type gen set IS NOT an option it is a requirement ..that decision was pointed out to me by my HVAC guy who says even my new gas furnace has computer chip in
I run it the first of each month for an hour and also have solar charging wired to the gen set battery
NOTE: Champion gen sets have the patented "cold start" system
I keep 10 5 gallon gas cans treated with Stabil and the gas is alcohol free from CooP ..stored near by in a separate outside bin
Through the summer I slowly burn in our vehicles the 5 gal cans and refill in October winter is our power risk
Important thought for me was I was shocked how fast these 8,9,10,000W go thru propane ..Like a BBQ grill 20# would not get you thru a night ..for a 3/4 day need a serious sized propane tank will be needed and in many areas that means buried ..
I have less than $2000 in the whole shebang
Bear

[MrWolf]

Forgot to mention I have a 500 Gallon propane tank just for the generator. Think it cost me about $1,000 new and installed. I dug the line for it.

[lightman]

Important[/B] thought for me was I was shocked how fast these 8,9,10,000W go thru propane ..Like a BBQ grill 20# would not get you thru a night ..for a 3/4 day need a serious sized propane tank will be needed and in many areas that means buried ..
I have less than $2000 in the whole shebang
Bear

I was real thankful to have natural gas available when I installed mine.

[725]

I had an electrician put in a sub-panel. Can't back up into the regular power lines so a man on the pole is never in danger of a shock. When the power goes out, I can go out and start my generator and then go to the sub-panel to energize the lines for the well pump, freezer, fridge and one or two duplex plugs for minimal lighting. Even if the power is out for a day, a week or more, I have the basics covered. Is it perfect comfort? No. It is "emergency" service. I heat with coal from a hand fired, so heat isn't even in the equation.

[Mal Paso]

Get A Transfer Switch! Too easy to make a mistake and fry something or Someone. I have a transfer switch built into my main panel.

I switch the whole house but the subpanel transfer switches allow you to be selective about what you power up on generator.