25-10 Halstead

[Danth]

Don't believe these were ever commercially produced, but rather developed to provide a centerfire alternative to the 25 Stevens rimfire. I've been working on an early tip up which has been converted to what I thought was the 25-10, but turned out to be a cross between a 25-10 and a 25 Hornet. The rim dimension is as the 25-10 and 25 Stevens, but the oal is that of the 25 Hornet. Neat idea as all three can be shot in this gun requiring only the rim of the 25 Hornet to be thinned. Question is this: Is the altered 25 Hornet then considered a 25-10 Long (if there ever was such a thing) a 25 Hornet or something entirely different?

[uscra112]

I have never heard or read about a "Halstead" wildcat, but i makes some sense in this day and age where OEM ammo is going for two bucks a round. An easy and obvious wildcat. I've been doing it myself. but at normal length. Squeeze Hornet brass down to .277, thin the rim, and trim to 1.25 length. Fits in standard .25 Stevens chambers. Use in rifles converted to centerfire. Not original with me, I learned it from others on the gun blogs. I've made up two Stevens rifles for it, and am planning a third.

I certainly wouldn't call a .277 O.D. straight case that's the full Hornet length a .25-10. It would hold quite a bit more than ten grains of black powder.

But is your rifle chambered for a straight Stevens case? If it will accept a .25 Hornet, (base diameter about .296), then firing a straight .25 Stevens case in that chamber is going to be, aaah, "interesting". Not to mention that a, bullet leaving a standard length Stevens case is going to have to jump a lo-o-ong way before it enters the throat.

It is tempting to make a longer .25 Stevens centerfire, but only if you're going to use black powder. No advantage I can see if the plan is to use smokeless.

[uscra112]

A little more research on the Innertubes turns up this thread:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ens-centerfire

Took a lot of ego for somebody to attach his name to it.

BTW that thread has people who still believe the .25 Stevens used a .251 bullet. I've got half a dozen, running from a 1893 sideplate Favorite to post-WW1 Favorites, a Marksman, and a couple of 44s and onward to a mint 1938 Model 83. ALL have ~.257 groove diameter.

[Danth]

The gun in question is a Steven's Tip-up pocket rifle. The chamber is full length Hornet with all dimensions the same except rim thickness. Fired cases appear straight, though upon reloading a neck sizer is required making the case appear as a miniature 32-40. Bore is .257". I've tried both 75gr and 90gr bullets and both perform equally well using 2.8grs and 3grs HS-6. I'm on the lookout for a lighter bullet mold in the 65-75gr range. At 25yds, I'm shooting a 1 1/2" group. Better sights would help a lot.

[uscra112]

Well, you've got a real unique gun there. A .25 Hornet with a thinned rim. (?) Not a "Halstead" at all. A crazy thing to do to a small, weak action like that pocket rifle, but keep the loads real light and it'll be OK.

I've been thrashing around after a good bullet for my reloadable .25 Stevens. A number of mould makers list one in the 60-65 grain range, but none are in stock, and no backorders. I finally got in touch with The Bullshop. He has an NOE 63 grain plain base mould, and cast me 300 in a soft alloy. Supplied as-cast, not lubed, they were pretty reasonable, and I got them in about three weeks.

A 257420 mould might do if you can find one. Mine casts about 77 grains with gas check and lube in sweetened wheelweights. I plan to use them in my .25-20s at about 1600 fps or so.

https://bullshop.weebly.com/about.html

Can't order from web site - email him with your needs. I can vouch for him wholeheartedly. He custom casts, so you should spec a soft alloy like I did.

[ndnchf]

I make them in both rimfire and centerfire. I like the 257420 bullet with no gas check. It loads easily and is very accurate.

[uscra112]

I have 257420s also, but so far have reserved them for the .25-20. Would not have thought that they would do well in the rimfire, but then remembered that your #4 has a quicker twist than the Stevens .25 rimfires have.

The Favorite barrel that John Taylor linered for me, which will get a .25 rimfire chamber when Dave Manson delivers my reamer, has a 14 twist, so it ought to handle even heavier bullets. More to think about.

Phil

[ndnchf]

With that 1-14 twist, it should shoot the heavier bullet very well. I've been loading the rimfire version recently because I have a .25 Stevens Remington #2 sporting rifle enroute. I'm looking forward to shooting it in a larger, stronger rifle.

[uscra112]

Yeah, on paper the 86 grainer could make a nice subsonic load without exceeding 10kpsi., given the fast twist. A little uncertain because I'm not sure how deep it would have to be seated. My reamer was designed around the 63 grain bullet.

[ndnchf]

There seems to be some shipping delays with my new .25 Stevens Remington #2 sporting rifle. No fault of the sender, but still frustrating. So this afternoon to soothe my frustration I made up 10 more .25 Stevens CF cases from .22 Hornet. I have a pretty good supply already made, loaded with 1.9gr W231. With this stronger #2 rifle, I'm going to see if I can work up a little hotter load. I already have a tang sight ready for it. My aging eyes need all the help they can get.

[uscra112]

Just spitballing this in Quickload, W231 looks a little fast. Do you have any H110 or other magnum pistol powder? (AA#9, Blue Dot, AA4100, 2400)

Quickload points to H110 being the best powder for a 1400 fps "High Velocity" loading. With the 63 grain bullet, I should add. Pressure circa 11,500 vs. 9,700 psi for your 231 load. Wish I had some. AA4100 is close. 2400 next best but it will push peak pressure up close to 14,000 to reach the 1400fps. goal.

[ndnchf]

I have 2400 and Reloader 7. Both have worked well for me.

[uscra112]

I can't remember if it was you or somebody else who was getting RL-7 to work well at low pressures, (circa 10kpsi). Downside in this instance is that you can't get enough of it in the modified Hornet case to even reach 1300 fps. in the model.

Supper calls - off for now.

[ndnchf]

From my loading log.
5.5gr RL7 and 257420 bullet gave 934fps
6.0gr RL7 and 257420 bullet gave 1047fps
6.5gr RL7 and 257420 bullet gave 1111fps
7.0gr RL7 and 257429 bullet gave 1205fps

4.5gr 2400 and NOE 63gr bullet gave 1370fps. I considered this too hot for the #4 rifle, but be ok for the #2 rifle.

4.0gr 2400 and 257420 bullet gave 1180fps
1.9gr W231and 257420 bullet gave 1082fps

[uscra112]

Quickload model says:

5.5gr RL7 and 257420 bullet gave 934fps --- 956 fps and 6003 psi
6.0gr RL7 and 257420 bullet gave 1047fps -- 1046 fps and 7364 psi
6.5gr RL7 and 257420 bullet gave 1111fps -- 1143 fps and 9062 psi
7.0gr RL7 and 257429 bullet gave 1205fps -- 1246 fps and 11190 psi


4.0gr 2400 and 257420 bullet gave 1180fps 1142 fps and 7814 psi
1.9gr W231and 257420 bullet gave 1082fps 1084 fps and 9720 psi

4.5gr 2400 and NOE 63gr bullet gave 1370fps. I considered this too hot for the #4 rifle, but be OK for the #2 rifle. The model goes sour here - I only get 1250 fps with a pressure of 8045 psi. Maybe I have a parameter wrong - seating depth, maybe? I have to boost charge to 4.9 grains and 11260 psi to get 1370 fps.

BTW all above assume 24 inch barrel length....

[ndnchf]

Thanks Phil, great information. These were all shot with the little #4 rifle with a 22.5" barrel. I can't explain the last load's variation. It had standard bullet seating depth and CCI SP primers like the others. For the #2 rifle I may start with 4.5gr of 2400 and the 257420 bullet.

[uscra112]

Beats me, too. I've tried manipulating input parameters to no avail. Will just have to wait until they get me healthy enough to go out and test the load myself.

I've got a couple of #4s, one solid frame .32 and ratty .22 takedown. The solid frame model I figure is as strong as the 1915 Favorites. The takedown not so much. Which is yours?

[ndnchf]

Its a late round barrel #4 with the improved takedown screw on the left side. The barrel is tight and the bore is mint.

[uscra112]

The reamer arrived today! Wasn't expecting it until January! Dave must like me.

[ndnchf]

The reamer arrived today! Wasn't expecting it until January! Dave must like me.

Ohhh, nice. Keep us posted!

I had 15 more hornet cases left. Since my tooling and jigs were out and set up, I'm converting them now.