Just adds “fuel” to my thinking that God does not know every event that will happen and that man’s choices influence what God does to effect His larger plan. Why select the Jews as the chosen people if He knew they would fail Him...maybe they were the best of the other bad choices?Originally Posted by Ickisrulz
Don Verna
Before the Law, man followed his own desires and conscience. Man's thinking was that if God just left us alone, we'd do OK. God knew that mankind would fail, but allowed it to show how low we could go (see Tower of Babel, Noah's Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah). As a result we saw we needed direction. With some guidance we could please God, right? Then came the Law.
The Law showed us that we are unable to please God because of our own deficiencies even though we know God's requirements. God knew this, but mankind needed to be shown. Once we understand that, we can accept the need for a savior. Remember that Paul talked about the Law leading us to Christ (in the KJV and others the Law is called a "schoolmaster").
God's varied methods with man were not because he did not understand man or because of his limited knowledge. It was to show us what we really need to please God.
Because Israel are God's People and will always be; we are not his People.
Everything Jesus said was to His People the Jews, he was not talking to the Gentiles.
The Saved People of this Age are members of the Church the Bride of Christ. Our Part of the KJB is Romans to Philemon.
The Book of Matthew is To the Jews.
The Jews did everything you said BUT he still Loves Them. Hosea 2 OT KJB.
God is still going to Save his People the Jews.
Most books of the Bible are written to the Jews. So what? The Jews were rejected when they rejected Jesus. This comes from Jesus himself. They will remain in this state until (or if) they accept Jesus as the Christ.
The Church (made up of Jewish and Gentile believers) is God's people now. Israel as a whole could come to Jesus someday, but it will be as a part of the Church. There is no other way. The Old Covenant is gone. Temple worship with all its rituals is gone as is the Law. The only way to be saved is through Jesus.
The selection of Israel as God's people was not at the exclusion of all the other people on earth. Israel was to share God's message with the nations and show the benefits of godly living. Abraham and his descendants were supposed to be a "blessing" to all people by doing these things. They didn't do so well and were replaced by those who believed the Gospel message. These people are indeed God's people and they have done a pretty good job sharing the Gospel and demonstrating God's love to the world.
Yes, Israel exists today in an area once occupied by their ancestors. God didn't give them back this land through his intervention because they responded to the Gospel or even adhered to the ancient agreements God made with Abraham. The land was provided to them by the United Nations after WW2. God had nothing to do with it. Israel today is nominally Jewish and doesn't seem to care much about God. So I have no idea why Christians are so infatuated with her other than an ignorance her standing with God.
As both interventions and answered prayers are happening in the lives of Christians perhaps a thread on that topic would be nice. If we are now in the generation of the fig tree then intervention is on the increase and attention certainly should be given to what is going on.
"Undoubtedly God will tell you not to listen to me."
Actually it was more like "You got yourself into this by answering him, so its your choice how you want to get out of this"
So I'll say it this way. You have your belief, I have mine. I'm not going to change your mind, your not going to change mine. So lets just leave it there and hope to meet at our Lords feet someday.
I did find it interesting that I was not the first you had heard of that use a similar technique if you will.
I happen to believe that he has many ways of touching us, and he uses what works best for each individual.
I truly believe we need to get back to basics.
Get right with the Lord.
Get back to the land.
Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.
May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
praise glorious!
Israel's Standing is No matter what the Jews do or Have done They are Still Gods People. That's the Promise God made to Them. God is coming back for them to give them Their Land.
Israel's= State, Their relationship with God will always Fluctuate Until Christ's Physical Return.
God's only Promise to a Nation in the 1189 Chapters of Bible is to Israel.
Ickisrulz, if we are talking about the Laws in the OT, how can anyone maintain hundreds of laws to achieve holiness? God set the Jews up for failure...failure was predestined. Man could not even obey 10 Commandments, and then man was expected to obey somewhere close to 600 laws.
I believe there is about a 400 year gap between the OT and NT. Likely only a second for a God not bound by time. But God knows man is bound by time. Yet, God wanted/needed four centuries to "make a course correction" that would save mankind.
In my mind, God wanted two things before the "reset". First, to give enough time for the Jews to understand saving mankind with adherence to the Laws in the OT would not work. Second, to prepare the world for the "Final Answer"...if you will...a pregnant pause. The coming of Jesus. TA DA!!!!
I do not know if God has abandoned the Jews. It may seem that way if the only way to salvation is through Jesus. I am not learned enough to know.
What I know, is God has given man an "easy" way to salvation, and it took millennia to get there. It also seems God does not select everyone to be chosen.
I try to understand what man cannot understand. I must make my Father laugh as I flail about.
Don Verna
For PITY'S SAKE....
STOP with the Doctrines of men
There is NO difference between the JEW and the GENTILE!
Answer these 6 questions -
1. Is Paul not part of the Bride of Christ???
2. Are the other Apostles not part of the body of Christ???
3. John the Baptist... not part of the body of Christ???
4. ALL the multitudes of Hebrews that were baptized in the name of Christ?
5. What about mixed race Gentile+Hebrew, do you have to be 51% Gentile to be eligible to be part of the Bride of Christ?
6. Are you of Abraham's seed or The Bride of Christ or both?
Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 1:16 KJV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 10:12 KJV
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly*; neither is that circumcision, which is outward* in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly*; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Galatians 3:28 KJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11 KJV
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
For the sake of Space I will stop here with the quotes but there are many more.
If you can read these VERY CLEAR scriptures and still say there is a different program for the JEWS then for the Gentile, Well...Good Luck
Also please understand that pushing the idea that the Book of Matthew was only for the "Jews" is in fact pushing a False doctrine that may cause folks to stumble. Not a good thing.
Look at just the between Israel and United State's.
In May of 1948 Israel became a named Nation again, but the United States would not help them when they were attacked by all the other countries in the Region. Basically setting Israel up for failure and giving the land back to the Arabs.
So what happened to the United State's in a little over two years our Army once the Second largest in the World is close to getting kicked off the Korean peninsula not one but twice in a year.
Everytime we mess with Israel and Their land we get Run Over later. Happened to LBJ because of 1967 war happened to Nixon because of 1973 Happened to Carter because of those stupid peace treaties plus not to mention all the Natural disasters.
Check me out with history starting with FDR sending the Saint Louis back Europe with all the Jews heading for the gas chamber.
Okay what happened to the people that are left after the Rapture and what do you do with the rest of the book of Revelation after Chapter 4 when the church is call out?For PITY'S SAKE....
STOP with the Doctrines of men
There is NO difference between the JEW and the GENTILE!
Answer these 6 questions -
1. Is Paul not part of the Bride of Christ???
2. Are the other Apostles not part of the body of Christ???
3. John the Baptist... not part of the body of Christ???
4. ALL the multitudes of Hebrews that were baptized in the name of Christ?
5. What about mixed race Gentile+Hebrew, do you have to be 51% Gentile to be eligible to be part of the Bride of Christ?
6. Are you of Abraham's seed or The Bride of Christ or both?
Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 1:16 KJV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 10:12 KJV
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly*; neither is that circumcision, which is outward* in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly*; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Galatians 3:28 KJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11 KJV
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
For the sake of Space I will stop here with the quotes but there are many more.
If you can read these VERY CLEAR scriptures and still say there is a different program for the JEWS then for the Gentile, Well...Good Luck
Also please understand that pushing the idea that the Book of Matthew was only for the "Jews" is in fact pushing a False doctrine that may cause folks to stumble. Not a good thing.
You didn't answer the 6 questions...?
As far your question, Chapter and verse please and if you can add a little context and a bit more detail to your question I will give it a shot.
Jesus summed up the Law for us: Love God and put him first in your life and treat other humans as you want to be treated. No one except Jesus was able to meet this requirement. But on the face of it, it sounds pretty easy. Maybe that is why it took so long for man to learn he needed a savior not a list of rules or even a conscience.
Some are still learning. If you notice, people always want to go back to following some list of rules to make them right with God (e.g., catholic sacraments) or a ledger of good works.
I think you nailed it there... We have been liberated from the Law
Galatians 3:22-25
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer* under a schoolmaster.
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Scripture clearly states predestination, justification as well as sanctification.
The only way a man can be saved from God’s wrath is through God’s grace, but grace isn’t God’s reward for living a good life-it’s God’s response to saving faith. And faith is a gift from God to only those whom he called and elected. Always the sheep, never the goats.
Bless y’all
At breakfast we touched upon this in discussion, and were thinking about the strong delusion that God is sending upon some. We were trying to remember the reason God would do this and had to go review 2nd Thessalonians.
I think that a lot of folks get confused with the words predestinate and foreknow.
Some have been fooled into thinking God picks winners and losers from the beginning... thanks to False doctrines of men like John Calvin
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Keyword "whosoever" not those that have been chosen
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
key word "all men"
We could fill up the page with scripture that rebukes the Calvinism garbage that God has already picked the Winners and Losers
Instead lets break it down differently.
First we need to establish that God knows the beginning from the end and everything in between. He knows every detail of your life from womb to tomb. The hairs on your head are numbered. This is what is meant by for foreknown
Imagine if you will that you are the wealthiest man on earth. All other empires pale in comparison to yours
You have 5 Children ages 1 through 5
You have only 48 hours to live before you go to be with the Lord
You need to put your affairs in order and need to pick which child will take over as head of you empire when they come of age
By some miracle you have a chance to look at your children's futures...you may not intercede or effect their lives you may only observe.
4 of the 5 children stumble and because of the lavish wealthy lifestyle fall into a foolish wicked life of drugs, alcohol abuse and depravity.
The Middle Child #3 grows up wise beyond his years, he loves the Lord, he ends up being a generous fair man by all moral standards.
So as you are making your last Will and Testament, which child are you going to appoint as head of your empire?
Of course Child #3... not because you love him more or you have developed him for the position, after all he is only 3years old... but because you have seen (foreknown) the decisions of the 5 children according to their free will
All 5 had the same opportunity but you predestinate #3 based on your foreknowledge of what path he takes as he grows up.
You are absolutely correct that salvation is a gift from God and it is not something that is earned. But this Gift is available to ALL... And the LORD wants ALL to except it.
Will all except? No
Does GOD know who will not except? Yes of course, he knows all from the womb to tomb.
He did not pick them to fail... Rebellion and denial is the path that their free will has taken them and they will be rewarded accordingly.
In the end there will be the Sheep and the Goats...BUT until the end everyone has the same opportunity to be a sheep.
Alabama, how would a Native American born in 500 AD hear the Word and be saved?
Fast forward to the Aztecs. They were being slaughtered for their gold by the same race that would preach salvation. I bet that was harder than selling popsicles to Eskimos.
Don Verna
Good question... I have asked myself that many times
Romans 1:19-20
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I think this is sort of an answer, I am sure there is a better one though.
As far as the church slaughtering them for their Gold... I think that is still going on today
I fall back on God does not choose everyone. Those other cultures had gods to explain creation and things they could not understand....but it was not God. Therefore, they could not accept Jesus for salvation and that is the only way to the Father.
It may seem unfair for a person not exposed to the Word to be unable to achieve salvation, but it seems that is how it is. Way beyond me to understand. Maybe there are exceptions for those in that predicament...maybe not. The Bible does not answer every question specifically.
John 3:16 may be an absolute truth/declaration for those exposed to the Bible, but not a universal truth/declaration.
Don Verna
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