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Thread: Are we chosen to be Christians?

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    We don't have information on the fate of the aborted because the Bible is essentially silent on the issue.
    We consider abortion wrong because it is ending a human life. I don't know that we can take it much further and be dogmatic about our inferences.
    Yep, we know killing babies is bad. And no, I don't think we should rethink our position. We know they come here and pass through the water once. Then they die. And to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. So we know where the aborted babies go. How they qualified for the fate of being aborted is a mystery but we know the Lord is fair.

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I would say their parents chose them to be "Christians", not God. God doesn't pick and choose who will be born to whom and under what circumstances. That falls on the parents.
    How would we know He doesn't intervene?

  3. #23
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    The vast majority of Christians hold their beliefs because they were born into Christian families. That is a "fact" that cannot be disputed or ignored. God chose them to be Christians. Why He did so is beyond my ability to understand, but it is a fact.

    There are those, and I am one, who become Christians though a process. They are Christians by choice and not by birth/heritage. BTW, I am not suggesting all people born into Christian homes accept Christ, many choose to reject Him. More n that later.

    The Lord enlists disciples to "spread the good news" for a reason. If a person is not born into a Christian home, they cannot know about Christ. They cannot be saved.

    What I continue to struggle with is why God has "stacked the deck" against most of humanity. 2000 years after Jesus showed the way, less than one third of the world believes in Christ. This trend continues downward; and global communication has not helped "spread the word". There are fewer Christians than in 1900, as a percentage. God is creating more and more souls that cannot and will not be saved...they are not chosen...they are forsaken.

    This has led to me ponder a bigger question. God has given us the tools to spread His Word and we are slipping back. Some professed "Christians" accept the murder of babies. Those that God has chosen are not "winning". Have we reached the tipping point? The Word is out there for all to see and is being rejected by more people. Has God had enough?

    What is wrong is now right. What is right is now wrong.

    When He sees "chosen people" rejecting Christ in increasing numbers, is the battle lost?

    Is it time for Jesus to return?
    For some time I've been suspecting the window for His return is from the last part of this decade on through to the end of the 2060's. Those are just my own thoughts based upon my own studies. Doesn't mean others haven't come up with the same idea because after all, when you get into studying scripture there's little chance of coming up with an original thought.


    A PS jest fer grins,
    Ever read the SF novel "Saturn Run"?
    The god Saturn handed down to us in mythology is of course the bad guy. At one point in the book the arrival at Saturn was set for Passover in 2068.
    Made me do a "Oh really!"
    Last edited by Good Cheer; 07-12-2022 at 02:51 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    How would we know He doesn't intervene?
    The Bible is pretty clear. Man is free to do as he wishes while on earth. People decide who they are going to marry (and/or have sex with), God doesn't decide this for them. He has given them advice, sometimes they take it other times they do not.

    The only parents that God specifically put a certain child with were Mary and Joseph. This was a unique event in all of the Bible.

    Just because God can control everything doesn't mean he does. If one reads the Bible, he will see God allows man to chose his own path, make his own decisions, govern himself, etc.

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The Bible is pretty clear. Man is free to do as he wishes while on earth. People decide who they are going to marry (and/or have sex with), God doesn't decide this for them. He has given them advice, sometimes they take it other times they do not.

    The only parents that God specifically put a certain child with were Mary and Joseph. This was a unique event in all of the Bible.

    Just because God can control everything doesn't mean he does. If one reads the Bible, he will see God allows man to chose his own path, make his own decisions, govern himself, etc.
    We're talking apples and oranges. What Mom gave Dad for his birthday nine months before I was born did not determine which human body my spirit body took residence in. And as far as our creator's intervention in the goings ons of this world, no, we do not know how much intervention is taking place. We know there's some but we don't know how much.

  6. #26
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    We can't know the mind of God - how does a person grasp a holy entity who can set the universe in place the way we perceive it to be? Every new telescope sent to space finds more and more galaxies. All the humans on Earth, alive or dead, could not set even one asteroid in orbit...much less a sun and planets. Yet God has chosen to make thousands upon thousands of galaxies, and those are just the ones we can see. If you want to bring it closer to home, look into the depths of the oceans or high in the rain forests - the diversity on earth is not random and it all has a purpose - we are simply not able to understand all of it. We also need to consider that the human mind only recognizes a very small percentage of the information that our senses perceive and it's easy to see we are bumbling around most of the time; it's a wonder we live long enough to reproduce.

    We have no way of knowing how aborted children (or even infants who are not yet self-aware but die after birth) will be treated but we can trust that God always works things towards His goodness and mercy.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    We're talking apples and oranges. What Mom gave Dad for his birthday nine months before I was born did not determine which human body my spirit body took residence in. And as far as our creator's intervention in the goings ons of this world, no, we do not know how much intervention is taking place. We know there's some but we don't know how much.
    So your belief is that there are human infant spirits in heaven hanging around with God, sometimes "Proving themselves", and God determines which body he will send them to? That sounds more like a Pixar movie plot than biblical ideas.

    Human procreation is random and mostly at the will of the parents. God does not select some to be born blind or handicapped in some other way. He doesn't decide who will be tall and who will be short, etc. Similarly, he does not choose who will respond to the Gospel and who will not. These matters are left up to individual people. (And, no, we are not all "created equal.")

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    The vast majority of Christians hold their beliefs because they were born into Christian families. That is a "fact" that cannot be disputed or ignored. God chose them to be Christians. Why He did so is beyond my ability to understand, but it is a fact.

    There are those, and I am one, who become Christians though a process. They are Christians by choice and not by birth/heritage. BTW, I am not suggesting all people born into Christian homes accept Christ, many choose to reject Him. More n that later.

    The Lord enlists disciples to "spread the good news" for a reason. If a person is not born into a Christian home, they cannot know about Christ. They cannot be saved.

    What I continue to struggle with is why God has "stacked the deck" against most of humanity. 2000 years after Jesus showed the way, less than one third of the world believes in Christ. This trend continues downward; and global communication has not helped "spread the word". There are fewer Christians than in 1900, as a percentage. God is creating more and more souls that cannot and will not be saved...they are not chosen...they are forsaken.

    This has led to me ponder a bigger question. God has given us the tools to spread His Word and we are slipping back. Some professed "Christians" accept the murder of babies. Those that God has chosen are not "winning". Have we reached the tipping point? The Word is out there for all to see and is being rejected by more people. Has God had enough?

    What is wrong is now right. What is right is now wrong.

    When He sees "chosen people" rejecting Christ in increasing numbers, is the battle lost?

    Is it time for Jesus to return?
    What you wrote here, reminds me of Isaiah 5
    Maybe if you do a study of that chapter, it'll help you with your questions.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    The vast majority of Christians hold their beliefs because they were born into Christian families. That is a "fact" that cannot be disputed or ignored. God chose them to be Christians. Why He did so is beyond my ability to understand, but it is a fact.

    >>>SNIP
    I dispute this.

    In my circle of friends (which includes those devoted to Christ and study his word, and those that go to church but don't study the bible, and those who claim to NOT be a Christian), the trend is more that the children of those devoted to the Lord are more likely to veer away from the faith. It's a trend that is shown throughout a group of books in the Old Testament.
    Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, and 2 Chronicles.

    My own personal testimony is something similar to this trend.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  10. #30
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    dverna,
    >or anyone else who wonders about those who find their faith without their parents guidance,
    There is a movie called "The Life of Pi." It's a fairly long movie, where portions of it are slow moving...but the way it's written, it's like 3 or 4 short movies put together, so if you start getting bored during a slow moving part, rest assured it'll switch directions (literally) soon enough...and it's worth sitting through the slow parts. The entire movie storyline is quite the wild ride.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454876/
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    So your belief is that there are human infant spirits in heaven hanging around with God, sometimes "Proving themselves", and God determines which body he will send them to? That sounds more like a Pixar movie plot than biblical ideas.

    Human procreation is random and mostly at the will of the parents. God does not select some to be born blind or handicapped in some other way. He doesn't decide who will be tall and who will be short, etc. Similarly, he does not choose who will respond to the Gospel and who will not. These matters are left up to individual people. (And, no, we are not all "created equal.")
    Sticking a question mark on the end of an unfounded allegation doesn't make it a question; you don't know what I think yet you keep stating what my beliefs are.
    Except for those interventions in history and those recorded in scripture as yet to come, I can't know how much God intervenes. But then I could think well how about Matthew 18:10 if very real intervention on an upfront and personal level was of no concern. Frankly I've had time to think about it over the years and decided He does intervene just like He answers prayers.
    Also, I know that our Lord knew us before we were born here because scripture says so.
    And I know it is for each to pass through the water once because scripture says so.
    Likewise I know we are here to make up our minds on who to follow.
    And I know that He is fair.
    But I don't know what a Pixar is.

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    How does God speak to you, in an audible voice?
    No, not audible, no sound.

    But I hear him in my head. I did not trust it at first as it seemed there was no way to prove it was not me fooling myself. Or the Devil trying to influence me.

    As to the first, yes it could be true. I could be fooling myself. But how many real arguements have you gotten into with your self about a difference of opinion?

    As to the second, I watched like a hawk. That "entity" for lack of a better word never once asked me to do something I did not agree with. Never asked me to do anything that would cause me or others pain or suffering.

    So over time I have come to believe it is

    A The Lord God Almighty maker of heaven and earth.

    B Or his son our Lord Jesus the Christ.

    C or IMO the most likely the Holy Spirit or some combination of the 3.

    D in one instance, someone here had asked for prayers for a relative who was in hospital in very bad shape.
    I read, lifted prayer, was told "The Lord is with her right now, she is on her way to heaven"
    And when I posted that information here, I posted it within a few minutes of her passing.

    So I have come to trust and believe what I have told.

    That does not blow up my ego, or make me special, or worthy of anything more than anyone else.
    But once in a while when I think I can help, or add clarity, or be of aid to people I step out of my comfort zone and post.

    Right wrong or otherwise.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Stepping out of that comfort zone can really be tough. But hey, I'm convinced that this is the generation of the fig tree and well, that more and more people are being more directly effected. Many will remain silent but some will step out of the boat.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    Sticking a question mark on the end of an unfounded allegation doesn't make it a question; you don't know what I think yet you keep stating what my beliefs are.
    Except for those interventions in history and those recorded in scripture as yet to come, I can't know how much God intervenes. But then I could think well how about Matthew 18:10 if very real intervention on an upfront and personal level was of no concern. Frankly I've had time to think about it over the years and decided He does intervene just like He answers prayers.
    Also, I know that our Lord knew us before we were born here because scripture says so.
    And I know it is for each to pass through the water once because scripture says so.
    Likewise I know we are here to make up our minds on who to follow.
    And I know that He is fair.
    But I don't know what a Pixar is.
    I only know what you have written in this thread. Take a look at your posts and you'll see why I think you believe the way you do.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    No, not audible, no sound.

    But I hear him in my head. I did not trust it at first as it seemed there was no way to prove it was not me fooling myself. Or the Devil trying to influence me.

    As to the first, yes it could be true. I could be fooling myself. But how many real arguements have you gotten into with your self about a difference of opinion?

    As to the second, I watched like a hawk. That "entity" for lack of a better word never once asked me to do something I did not agree with. Never asked me to do anything that would cause me or others pain or suffering.

    So over time I have come to believe it is

    A The Lord God Almighty maker of heaven and earth.

    B Or his son our Lord Jesus the Christ.

    C or IMO the most likely the Holy Spirit or some combination of the 3.

    D in one instance, someone here had asked for prayers for a relative who was in hospital in very bad shape.
    I read, lifted prayer, was told "The Lord is with her right now, she is on her way to heaven"
    And when I posted that information here, I posted it within a few minutes of her passing.

    So I have come to trust and believe what I have told.

    That does not blow up my ego, or make me special, or worthy of anything more than anyone else.
    But once in a while when I think I can help, or add clarity, or be of aid to people I step out of my comfort zone and post.

    Right wrong or otherwise.
    I thought as much. I have known plenty of people in my life that have made claims of "hearing" from God. When pressed what that means, it's usually a feeling or internal dialog.

    Why do I care? Because inexperienced Christians get the idea that God actually talks to people and they feel left out, disappointed and think they are doing something wrong.

    God speaks to us through the Bible when it comes to special revelation. God didn't even sit around having discussions with Jesus. Jesus learned about God and his mission from the scriptures.

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Ickisrulz Sir it is my opinion that "Anyone" can learn to hear him.

    IMO you do need

    A a pure heart.

    B A humble spirit

    C (this seems to be the part people have trouble with) You have to "Calm" your mind. So its like a northern Minnesota lake at 5am. Not a wrinkle on it, like a sheet of glass.

    If you can do that, and you ask him a question you might get an answer.

    Now my wife does not "hear" him, but she receives flashes of images, and "Knowings" Knowledge that suddenly appears in our minds, that we have no answer for where it came from, but illustrates the solution to our current problem perfectly.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    Ickisrulz Sir it is my opinion that "Anyone" can learn to hear him.

    IMO you do need

    A a pure heart.

    B A humble spirit

    C (this seems to be the part people have trouble with) You have to "Calm" your mind. So its like a northern Minnesota lake at 5am. Not a wrinkle on it, like a sheet of glass.

    If you can do that, and you ask him a question you might get an answer.

    Now my wife does not "hear" him, but she receives flashes of images, and "Knowings" Knowledge that suddenly appears in our minds, that we have no answer for where it came from, but illustrates the solution to our current problem perfectly.
    I have heard this formula before from more than one person, even people I respected and didn't suspect of being deceitful. However it sounds an awful lot like actively thinking rather than hearing directly from God. I suppose you could say that thinking about scripture you have learned and comparing it to life experiences/observations and coming up with conclusions could be a form of hearing from God. But that is much different than receiving a direct word from him.

    Let's think about how God spoke to people directly in the Bible (beyond Eden):

    1. To legitimate prophets who delivered the messages to others
    2. Visions
    3. Dreams
    4. Angelic visions
    5. Prophetic utterances in Christian assemblies
    6. Utterances in Tongues with an interpretation in Christian assemblies

    You will notice there is no mention of sitting on a calm lake early in the morning and hearing from God in your head.

    Jesus does tell us the Holy Spirit will remind us of his words. Although, this is not hearing directly from God.

    I'll also point out that God is generally very quiet. There are periods of 100+ years in the Bible where God did not speak directly to anyone. I have heard people claiming that God directs the most mundane things in their lives that it makes him seem like a control freak and this is just not supported in Scripture.

    Christians should be very careful in what they try to pass off as a word from God.

    Undoubtedly God will tell you not to listen to me.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 07-14-2022 at 11:26 AM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post

    He replied that he was in the business of collecting Souls and that when a child is aborted both the physical body and the soul attached to it are lost!
    I think...
    A child in the womb, infant/toddler, adolescent and adult all have a body/flesh, a spirit and a soul (see Hebrews 4:12)

    Body/flesh is just that, our physical body carnal selves
    The Soul might be described as our personality (freewill, love, hate, good, bad etc.)
    The Spirit is something sacred and GOD given (might be what was made in the image of God) and what is sealed until the day of redemption after being saved. Much harder to accurately describe

    What "works" does a person (womb thru adulthood) have to do to get their names written in the Lambs book? None. (See Ephesians 2:8)
    I don't find any prescription or references in scripture of actions to have your name written in.
    What I do see... actions or non belief (rejection of Christ) that can get you blotted out.

    I think all names are written in the Book of Life, everyone has the same chance at life ever lasting. It is up to you through your actions whether or not you are blotted out

    In the end there is only two destinations Reward vs Punishment
    1. Heaven eternal Glory
    2. Eternal suffering and gnashing of teeth

    Being murdered in the womb or a child's tragic death does not get them blotted out.
    Babies in the womb and young children are not lost to eternal damnation

  19. #39
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    Thessalonians 1:4
    English Standard Version
    4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you

    This appears to be a straightforward declaration penned by the apostle Paul. God has chosen us.

    This "choosing" can result because we are born into a Christian family/culture, through missionary work, by hitting some of us with a 2x4, or bringing us under the influence of other Christians as we mature.

    God may put some or all of these methods before a person He has chosen, and some will still choose not to accept Jesus. I do not believe God knows how we will choose. Otherwise, why waste the effort on those who will reject Jesus anyway.

    But God has also chosen not to offer salvation to millions of people. He does not choose everyone.

    BTW, I do not believe God knows everything about the future. There is too much proof that countering that belief. The fact that man has choices and those choices can influence the future leaves "wiggle room" for what may happen and when. A good example is the second coming of Christ. God knows it will happen because it must, but He does not control every aspect of what will trigger it and when those events will occur. It is like giving your child that new pocket knife. You know he/she will cut themselves but you do not know what will cause the accident (whitling a stick, cutting a rope, or just closing the knife) or when it will happen.

    One last item that noodles at me. The Jews are the "chosen people" God selected in the OT to spread His word. But they did not accept Christ as their Saviour. And in the NT the only way to God and eternal life is through Jesus.
    Don Verna


  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    One last item that noodles at me. The Jews are the "chosen people" God selected in the OT to spread His word. But they did not accept Christ as their Saviour. And in the NT the only way to God and eternal life is through Jesus.
    This shouldn't be surprising. The Jews as a nation rejected God routinely throughout her long history (i.e., stoned the prophets and killed those sent to her). About the only thing she did for the world was preserve the Scripture, which was only part of her mission. Therefore, God has rejected the Jews and will continue to do so until they recognize Jesus as the Christ (per Jesus' words).

    What fascinates me is many Christians' obsession with modern Israel.

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