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Thread: Tired of my Single Stage...........what next?

  1. #81
    Boolit Master Stopsign32v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 414gates View Post
    Not all. I have the Hornady Pro-Jector, Hornady Lock-n-Load and a RCBS pro 2000.

    I have them all priming reliably.

    Priming is just the bane of Lee progressives.

    When Lee said they created the APP because most of their users didn't prime on press, they missed the part where the users can't prime on press even if they wanted to - the priming doesn't work reliably.
    I guess we will find out. Just about every video I've watched on the Loadmaster has people reliably priming on the press. (Not directed towards you) I feel the hatred towards Lee isn't just. It seems to me that if you aren't willing to spend $550 for a progressive press then you cannot get into the cool kids' club.

    I don't exactly bleed Lee red but I can without a doubt say that their overwhelming simplicity and their precise directions are not matched by ANY other reloading company. And for someone that doesn't reload daily this is a God send. I often take breaks between reloading due to a number of different things and often times forget how to setup something or a certain detail. I go to the Lee instructions and I'm immediately back on track.

  2. #82
    Boolit Master


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    If you setup station 2 as a primer shell stabilizer..lots of internet video evidence says that you should be priming ok. Apparently that is the 'fix' people have found to make it reliable. I've just seen another video like that.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master
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    I have a lee loadmaster. 1st run with 9mm I did 800 in less than an hour and not a primer was fliped or crushed. I later set it up for 38 sp and never could get it to prime without crushed and upside primers. I also have a lee 4 hole turret. It is great for less than 500 runs ( I can get 250 9mm per hour). I have turrets set up for all the calibers that I shoot. I have a RCBS hand primer for small runs, and a Lee ACP ( auto case prime) press. It is fast as lightning with the case collator and feeder. I also have a lee 4000. I do not like the lee safety prime it uses. It is good for depriming brass before cleaning, but the lee ACP has a deprime kit that is just as fast. The 6000 should be out soon and looks good.
    How fast do you need to load? 200+ with a turret or 700+ with a progressive?
    There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialismóby vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide. Ayn Rand

  4. #84
    Boolit Master

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    I have a Dillon 550B, a Redding T7 and my original RCBS Rockchucker. I have full setups for .45ACP, 9mm, .38/357, .40S&W for the Dillon. All others are loaded on the other 2. If any appreciable amount of other cartridges is to be reloaded, I use the T7. The Rockchucker is used for load development & sizing cast when I'm going to tumble lube.

    The Dillon is the only press I prime on. I use the T7 to deprime mainly rifle and revolver rounds and prime on a RCBS bench primer. The T7 handles spent primers very well and the Rockchucker does not.
    John
    W.TN

  5. #85
    Boolit Buddy 414gates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stopsign32v View Post
    I guess we will find out. Just about every video I've watched on the Loadmaster has people reliably priming on the press.
    Depends on your definition of reliable. 1 failure in 100 is not reliable for me. For some, it's good enough. In any case, I have yet to hear of any buyer of a Lee Loadmaster that sets the press up out of the box, puts 100 primers in the tray, and successfully primes 100 pieces of brass. And I bought my first Loadmaster about 15 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stopsign32v View Post
    I feel the hatred towards Lee isn't just.
    Hatred, not at all. I'm a Lee fan. I always said that the Lee Loadmaster is one of the best progressive press designs ever, and if the Loadmaster was made with a proper priming system, Lee would have completely owned the progressive reloading press market by now. The innovation coming out of Lee is amazing. The new press designs are a big improvement on the old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stopsign32v View Post
    I don't exactly bleed Lee red but I can without a doubt say that their overwhelming simplicity and their precise directions are not matched by ANY other reloading company.
    Agreed. Some of their products function are unequalled for any price. The trim die concept, the collet neck sizer, the factory crimp die, the classic cast press, their moulds, sizing dies, lead hardness tester - just the ones I use - can't be beat at any price.

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy 414gates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    If you setup station 2 as a primer shell stabilizer..lots of internet video evidence says that you should be priming ok. Apparently that is the 'fix' people have found to make it reliable. I've just seen another video like that.
    There are a few 'fixes' out there, and they improve operation for a while, but never completely fix it. in the end, people just prime off press.

    The first thing is the primer chute. Sometimes there are little ridges left behind from manufacturing, and these hang up the primers on the way down.

    The next is the primer seating pin. If it protrudes too much, it flips the primer sideways or upside down.

    The die in station 2 is to get the case centered on the upstroke, so that the primer can seat properly on the downstroke. Doesn't hurt to have it.

    Then, you have to keep the priming chute full. The priming chute is gravity fed, if there are too few primers, they can't slide to the bottom of the chute.

    Now add a few loose grains of powder here and there while you're working, and you have the ingredients for an interesting time.

  7. #87
    Boolit Buddy
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    Buy a new single stage and learn the process for ten years. Repeat until you own (4) single stage presses.

    Now you can safely go to Lee Turret, Breech Lock Pro or Dillon 550. You have mastered (4) die set up.

    😂😂😆😆😅😅

    I can produce 2-250 hand gun rounds on my Lee Turret. Some get 550 on a Dillon 550. Most get far less, 3-400.

    Time is what a progressive will give you. For some it is loading (1) night per month that they like.

    All progressive presses can do a caliber change in 3.5 minutes. You will probably spend an hour cleaning, doing service to it and getting your cartridges to pass inspection so you are comfortable.

  8. #88
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Upstroke of the ram is what I mean. You can't get any feel at all by pushing on the handle. You just give it an OOF or two, and call it good. That's how I learned to reload on an RCBS rockchucker. It worked, primer tubes work. As soon as I could move on to anything else, I did. With a rock solid bench, good press mounting plate, and consistent run, press priming works fine for the most part. You wouldn't have the slightest clue if you got one in backwards or sideways until you look at them after loading.

    By priming on the upstroke AKA pushing down on the handle, you get a real good feel for the primer. There's no need to jam it this way. The only press I've been able to try this on was using Lee's Ram prime, which is a phenomenal tool if you have a hand press, either Lee's or Randy's.

    @414gates, that's a great example of of Lee bashers. An RCBS pro2000, really? That's your counter argument for how bad Lee is? Yeah, ok, you go ahead and load those strips.

    Look, if you guys can't come up with an argument that doesn't involve primer tubes, or rube goldberg primer strip contraptions, you have no business bashing Lee. As far as I'm concerned, Lee's gravity fed primer tray is superior to any other kind of primer holder. Do I think it could be better? Of course, but the idea that they don't work is outright BS.

  9. #89
    Boolit Master AnthonyB's Avatar
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    I am not bashing any manufacturer, just pointing out that the words you used in the order you used them were incorrect and gave a false impression of how the Dillon presses operate. Priming at the bottom of the downward movement of the handle is done at the moment of maximum leverage and gives no “feel” at all to primer insertion. The Dillon’s that prime on the last infinitesimal movement of the handle upward give a much better “feel” of the primer seating, and you know if it is somehow crooked. Upside down is operator fault in loading the tubes.

    This is not my circus, and those are not my monkeys. I was just trying to clarify what you posted for accuracy/understanding. The OP has made his choice, so I’ll let this one go.
    Tony

  10. #90
    Boolit Buddy 414gates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    @414gates, that's a great example of of Lee bashers. An RCBS pro2000, really? That's your counter argument for how bad Lee is? Yeah, ok, you go ahead and load those strips.
    You missed post 85.

    Your opinion is that Lee priming is better because there is no primer tube - if works better for you, then it is.

  11. #91
    Boolit Master derek45's Avatar
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    Those of us who are recommending DILLON are not snobs or LEE haters.

    We simply tried LEE progressives and moved on to better quality and reliability

    I have a ton of LEE dies . . . . . installed on DILLON toolheads.


    With the casefeeder and the Dillon powder-check-system, it's easy to load up 1000 perfect rounds between supper and putting the kids to bed.


    .


    NRA LIFE Member

    USPSA/IPSC

  12. #92
    Boolit Master Stopsign32v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derek45 View Post
    Those of us who are recommending DILLON are not snobs or LEE haters.

    We simply tried LEE progressives and moved on to better quality and reliability

    I have a ton of LEE dies . . . . . installed on DILLON toolheads.


    With the casefeeder and the Dillon powder-check-system, it's easy to load up 1000 perfect rounds between supper and putting the kids to bed.


    So $550 for the press, $100 for the powder check, and $290 for the case feeder I can have 1000 cases an hour which I don't really need right now.

    OR I can do what I did and take the other $628 I saved an put it towards something else...

  13. #93
    Boolit Master


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    To the Dillon cult.. why is it that the only times I have ever heard of primer detonations it's always in dillon tubes?

    PS.. I own and reload on just about every type of gear made in the last 80 years.. there are even a very few pieces of blue laying around.. though most of it is red and green.

  14. #94
    Boolit Buddy 414gates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    To the Dillon cult.. why is it that the only times I have ever heard of primer detonations it's always in dillon tubes?
    The problem is not unique to Dillon, and it's a problem that's occurred on the 650, not sure about others.

    The Lee Loadmaster used to ship with a blast shield. They warned against using certain brands of primer without it.

    I've never heard of it actually happening, but there must be a reason for the warning.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master

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    Another vote for Lee Classic Cast Turret, been using one since I "upgraded" from the original turret press. I prefer loading like a single stage, filling a loading block before going on to seating the bullets, but like the convenience of just swapping turrets to change calibers.
    "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it."
    ~Pericles~

  16. #96
    Boolit Master Stopsign32v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 414gates View Post
    The problem is not unique to Dillon, and it's a problem that's occurred on the 650, not sure about others.

    The Lee Loadmaster used to ship with a blast shield. They warned against using certain brands of primer without it.

    I've never heard of it actually happening, but there must be a reason for the warning.
    Lee spoke with Dillon and didn't want lawsuits. Later they realized their product was superior and didn't need the shield for something that would only happen with a Dillon press.


  17. #97
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    To the Dillon cult.. why is it that the only times I have ever heard of primer detonations it's always in dillon tubes?

    PS.. I own and reload on just about every type of gear made in the last 80 years.. there are even a very few pieces of blue laying around.. though most of it is red and green.
    The only person I know who had that happen had it happen twice. He was a top CAS shooter and admitted he runs his 1050 to crank out as many rounds as possible as he shoots a lot. He did not fault the press or the primer system. He is a shooter....not a reloader...a very fine shooter.

    I have owned a Green Machine, Star, two SDB's, two 550's, a 650 and three 1050's and never had a primer detonation. It may be because I do not try to go super-fast, or maybe I am lucky.

    Back to your question. I suspect one reason primer detonations may occur more on Dillons is that the primer system on Dillons is reliable enough that most people use it. It appears some folks with Lee's, Hornady AP's etc wind up priming off the press, and justify why they must do so, instead of admitting the primer system is unreliable. Well...it seems that will certainly avoid a tube of primers going off.

    As to "cult", I have a few Lee items but none of their presses or pistol dies. Dillon does a better job on those items. I have done a lot of reloading and hate it, so I buy stuff that works without a lot of tweaking or frustration. Getting burned by trying to save money and suffering from it is a good teacher.

    I would certainly consider a Lee single stage or turret press if I was starting out again. Those are simple presses that do not get a lot of cycling. For a serious volume of reloading, Dillons just plain work and have worked for decades. For people who shoot less, other progressive presses may be a suitable compromise between cost, production rate and reliability. Much depends on the persons mechanical ability, and how easily frustrated they are.

    We tend to believe what works for us is what everyone needs. Just not so. I have tried to keep that in mind as I have been guilty of thinking that way. Many people are well served by Lee and Hornady progressives, but many are not.

    I can go downstairs, load up 20 primer tubes and crank out 2000 rounds in about 3-4 hours on the 1050. It suits my needs. It is not for everyone.
    Don Verna


  18. #98
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    As much praise as I hear for Dillon..i just don't see much better ammo comming out..really.
    I have rcbs, hornady, lyman, lee, c&h, pacific, and lots of other gear. When it comes to dies.. Lee is cheapest..then moving up the price tree.. you have rcbs and hornady..lyman, then Dillon.

    I've only ever broken one decap stem ( and a couple pins ).. And it was an rcbs die.. But to its defense..it was on some hornady brass ..and hornady didn't put the flash hole in the center of that batch of brass..they just randomly put it somewhere in the primer pocket... As for other die problems... A hornady set of all american 38/357 had a neck expander that was cut and or assembled wrong.

    Making ammo... Strangely... All the ammo looks the same whether it came from a 28 $ lee die set..or a 85$ rcbs set... Blue sets cost even more..cant imagine what benefit I'd gain going even farther up the food chain when red, red, green and orange dies all seem to make identical ammo... Do blue dies make that much better ammo to cost 4x? One thing I am less fond of is lee lock rings..but that was on single stage press... On a turret tool head..they are fine.
    Not a Dillon hater...
    In my group of shooting friends I'm the only caster and up until last year the only reloader. A buddy finally got into it..seeing me always have ammo. He got a Dillon. I think it's a 550 or 650.. I'm not versed enough on them.
    He has setups for 45acp and .223. He will be getting into 357 Sig soon. He mainly runs 45acp as he has no brass trimmer. I think he's made a full box of 45acp so far in the last year and a half. Apparently lots of setup.??

    He has a g$$d job and asked about gear and what I used. He eventually settled on whatever cost the most as it must be best. ( ?? )

    I'm not drawing any conclusions...but I shoot alot more than he does... When commercial j-words went away last year, my shooting didn't skip a beat.. ( man I love casting... ). He got interested in cast lead bullets at that time.... Not making them...he wanted mine... Lol.

  19. #99
    Boolit Buddy super6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oley55 View Post
    "My Dad is stronger than yours", or so I recall in the 60's.

    In the early 80's my first press was a Lee three hole turret. In the mid 80's I got a Dillon RL450 and soon found swapping between small and large primers required a little more fiddling than I liked so I bought a second RL450. For many years after, the Lee three hole served as my single stage for a variety of functions. Then a few years ago I decided I needed a real single stage and got a Forster Co-Ax which was soon followed by a vintage RCBS A2 and an older Rock chucker. I still have them all and still use them all.

    Each serves a purpose for me and deserve no more devotion other than they each serve their intended use/function. I don't own any of the presses currently being praised or dissed and have no comment or opinion. Well.... except why would I choose to diss someone else's choices? Especially if I don't already own or have used one.

    All these years later I still think my Blue RL450s are the best semi-progressive presses ever made. And at the time, those Dillon 450s were the most affordable progressive press available for the likes of me. Anything else out there was super high dollar commercial types (or so I recall).

    In short, life is already too short. Enjoy each blessed day as they come, and be nice.
    I have mostly hollywood junk, 12 station turret in witch I can do 4 calibers, And a single stage hollywood , Love life!
    takeo Shimizu , The father of organic chemistry

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Winger Ed. View Post
    A progressive is a obvious choice, but if you don't like them and have room on the bench-
    mount a couple more single stage ones.

    Or get a LNL Hornady with the quick change bushings.
    Right there. I put the Hornady quick-change adapter in my Rock Chucker so I can swap dies from the single-stage to progressive, with less than 0.0001 difference in COAL.
    Don't want no one to git hurt, but if you're gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check