Colt Police Revolvers vs. K-frame S&W Revolvers in Strength?

[Dutchman]

All this great information and not a single photograph!

S-prefix MP .38 Special. I've owned several over the years. This particular one I've not even shot yet. I have a second MP that was made 1923 and was police gun. The barrel is loose on that one.



Colt Official Police .38 Special. Mfg 1929. I was told it was an armored car guard gun. It has a nice smooth action but.... The cylinder lock-up is loose with side-to-side play. In looking at it, taking it apart, it appears to be the actual cylinder locking pin where it fits into the recess on the extractor star. I've thought how it could be repaired and seems it needs two procedures. One is to make a scrapping tool to clean out and freshen the extractor recess and then modify the locking pin with a larger pin. Seemed like a lot of work for a very small issue but there it is. The Colt came with the Pachmayr Presentation and they feel very good.



The 1939 Stoeger's catalog lists the ammo.

[Char-Gar]

Don't buy broken guns unless you are a competent pistolsmith with lots of the correct parts.

[Bigslug]

I'll just make the observation that Common Sense should rule in which ammo you use in which revolver, and vintage should be a big factor in that decision.

Reminds me of a documentary I saw 10-20 years ago about a group of Brits restoring an ME-109 that had crashed during the Battle of Britain. They sent the BMW (maybe Benz) engine to Rolls-Royce for a going-over and were told "Every part on this thing is smack in the middle of a set of pretty tight tolerances, AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T DAMAGE THE CRANKSHAFT, BECAUSE WE DON'T THINK WE COULD MAKE ANOTHER ONE!"

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but the impression I've had is that while the S&W's will have variation from one revision of a model to the next, you'll probably have an easier time finding spares for most of them than the Colts. In any event, much like the Messerschmidt, these guns have ceased to be a consumable weapon of war that you can throw around the sky with reckless abandon because (a.) your life depends on it, and (b.) a governmental entity is picking up your maintenance bill. Kicking in the turbo boost on a museum piece is probably not the best call, even if it was rated for it back in the day.

[Outpost75]

Reminds me of tale Dad told me of WW2 Mitsubishi aircraft engine they got for testing which had Fafnir bearings in it made in New Britain, CT which had his own USAAF inspection mark on it.

[smkummer]

All this great information and not a single photograph!

S-prefix MP .38 Special. I've owned several over the years. This particular one I've not even shot yet. I have a second MP that was made 1923 and was police gun. The barrel is loose on that one.



Colt Official Police .38 Special. Mfg 1929. I was told it was an armored car guard gun. It has a nice smooth action but.... The cylinder lock-up is loose with side-to-side play. In looking at it, taking it apart, it appears to be the actual cylinder locking pin where it fits into the recess on the extractor star. I've thought how it could be repaired and seems it needs two procedures. One is to make a scrapping tool to clean out and freshen the extractor recess and then modify the locking pin with a larger pin. Seemed like a lot of work for a very small issue but there it is. The Colt came with the Pachmayr Presentation and they feel very good.



The 1939 Stoeger's catalog lists the ammo.

The colt probably only needs the cylinder bushing tapped ( bent) into alignment. This might have happened if it was dropped. If upon closing the cylinder one still observes a slight gap with the cylinder crane to frame or looseness, then open the cylinder and tap it downward at the rear of the cylinder. Go light with a wooden mallet or handle until when back inside the frame, no looseness in noted.

[Mk42gunner]

My personal opinion is that any of the older .38 Special revolvers make pretty good guns, but they don't need to be hot-rodded into .357 Magnum territory. +P may be okay, if you can be sure it won't get into something that it will damage.

I went to Armorer's school about thirty years ago, (all two weeks of it) and we did learn how to work on Colt, Ruger, and S&W revolvers.

I did maintain a bunch of K frames, and a few Security Sixes. I have no problem working on my own Rugers or S&W's. Colts on the other hand, I know enough to maintain (i.e. take apart, clean and lube) but I don't have the indepth hands on knowledge to alter them willy nilly.

Robert

[downzero]

Out of the approximately 700 Model 19-4 revolvers my department owned, none were ever put out of commission from a steady diet of +P ammunition used for both duty

I'd certainly hope not. .38 +P has half the pressure of .357 Magnum. It should last forever with 38 loads.

[Dutchman]

The colt probably only needs the cylinder bushing tapped ( bent) into alignment. This might have happened if it was dropped. If upon closing the cylinder one still observes a slight gap with the cylinder crane to frame or looseness, then open the cylinder and tap it downward at the rear of the cylinder. Go light with a wooden mallet or handle until when back inside the frame, no looseness in noted.

I'll peruse your suggestions, thank you.

Dutch

[Outpost75]

Something to consider on former cop or corrections Colts is that frames are frequently bent from being used as impact weapons. I have factory lettered NYPD and NYDC Attica Colt OP revolvers which required frame straightening as well as setting barrels back to fix a loose gap, correcting end shake and timing. Perhaps re bluing and targeting. Sometimes you need to decide if you want to spend $600-$1000 in gunsmithing to correct a $150-250 gun because you knew the guy back in the day and wanted his son to have Dad's gun. Have done this twice and family was appreciative. Never regretted doing so.

[PBSmith]

Thanks all for your comments. I learned a lot from them and appreciate your sharing of experience.

[Jtarm]

I am something of an aficionado of the Colt E Frames. I do believe that the larger cylinder and hence thicker walls made for greater strength and capable of containing higher pressures. But the K-frame Smith's actions are much more durable. When I began to shoot PPC on the late 70's, I used a Colt Python initially.

I used it for about a year and a half, but two trips to the Gunsmith's at $50 a visit to get it re-timed put paid to that. I was able to purchase a Bill Davis S&W M-10 Bull Barrel used, and shot it at least 40,000 times over the next 5 years and never had to take it in. Granted my Python had fired several hundred, maybe as many as a thousand, hot .357 loads put through it, but it was spewing lead like a red-neck at a water melon spitting contest after less than 8,000 38 WC target loads. And while I did not keep track of the number of rounds, it was back in the shop less than 8 months later.

So, cut to the chase, the Colts may have been stronger, but the Smith's were more durable, at least so long as the loads were kept to standard velocity.

I am something of an aficionado of the Colt E Frames. I do believe that the larger cylinder and hence thicker walls made for greater strength and capable of containing higher pressures. But the K-frame Smith's actions are much more durable. When I began to shoot PPC on the late 70's, I used a Colt Python initially.

I used it for about a year and a half, but two trips to the Gunsmith's at $50 a visit to get it re-timed put paid to that. I was able to purchase a Bill Davis S&W M-10 Bull Barrel used, and shot it at least 40,000 times over the next 5 years and never had to take it in. Granted my Python had fired several hundred, maybe as many as a thousand, hot .357 loads put through it, but it was spewing lead like a red-neck at a water melon spitting contest after less than 8,000 38 WC target loads. And while I did not keep track of the number of rounds, it was back in the shop less than 8 months later.

So, cut to the chase, the Colts may have been stronger, but the Smith's were more durable, at least so long as the loads were kept to standard velocity.

The distinction between strength and durability is important, and, from what I can tell, lost on most people. They assume a big, beefy revolver that can withstand higher pressures also means the mechanical aspects are tougher.

[rintinglen]

One other aspect of the firearm design that deserves mention is that the cylinder bolt on the Colt six-shooters is offset to the right, while that of the S&W is centered on the chamber wall.

While in modern guns, at least, this is seldom an issue, I owned a 44 hand ejector that had been damaged by some Elmer Keith wanna-be that had dimpled the walls of two chambers so that no loads greater than factory could be used without making ejection very difficult. Older M&P revolvers also could be vulnerable to this type of damage, though I have not personally encountered it.