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Thread: Dance with the one you brought

  1. #21
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    Everything depends on the circumstances, does it not? I think 50 yds. brings up the "flight or fight" question. Some, of course, due to physical impairment are unable to successfully flee. But given that ability, even if it's to depart the area of the threat to a safer location at a fast limp might be the better choice when explaining what happened (or didn't happen) to police or a jury. Given the ability to find cover, and not wearing a badge, I always thought 50 yds. was an optional limit of defense or flight, whereas the 15 yd. possible successful knife attack distance leaves no option but defense. I think 50 yd. gunfights among civilians are rare, and I'd bet that most gangstas' marksmanship isn't very good at that distance. Well, just some thoughts.......

    DG

  2. #22
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    Super short range is something we practice every summer. I'm talking snake distance. We just take a woods walk and find a stick about the size of a snake. It is not something the folks I shoot with can do without practice on the first shot. Two to three feet in front of you on the ground.
    Carry guns are 15 yds to 25 yds unless the shooter is having problems. Then we go to around 10 yds give or take and work out the problems and start moving back. However this thread being about carry guns at 50 yds is very different than shooting full size handguns at said distance. As Sharps4590 indicated, when we are playing with single actions, and larger double actions with adj. sights, most of our shooting is done between 50 and 100 yds. Not all that hard to do with bigger handguns once you practice a little. I'll let everyone know on Tuesday how I do with my shield and Glock 43. The only other short barrels I have is a model 15 snub, model 31 in 32 long(not a carry option for me) and plenty of 4,5,6.5, and 7.5's but also not everyday carry.
    Tony

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    I've been handgun hunting and competitive shooting for a very long time. Most people sell handgun capability way too short IMHO.

    My current carry gun is a Sig 365XL with a Holosun 507K X2 red dot on it. I have it sighted for 50 yards. Yes, it's a micro compact but the trigger is very good for a striker fired gun and it shoots very well. The 9mm only has 2 inches drop at 50 yards. No, it's not a match 1911 but it groups well at 50 yard and particularly well fired when from a rest.

    As the number of mass shootings go up the traditional SD range ideas are becoming somewhat dated. On the other hand, if I go really small like my early Ruger LCP 380 it has very limited accuracy and range. It doesn't shoot to POI, it has a lossy trigger & sights and the gun itself is not very accurate. Even for normal SD much past 30 feet becomes problematic for shooter/gun accuracy combination.

    The LCP had seen a lot of carry primarily since it's so compact. Nowadays 99% of my carry is with then the Sig 365XL or something larger.

    I changed my carry habits and requirements greatly after having to go into the riot areas during and after the 2020 Mpls riots. I have a couple of 5 shot S&W and Ruger revolvers I shoot well that I liked to carry. They have not been used for carry since dealing with the riots. When I carried the revolvers five in the cylinder and 5 in a speed strip seemed like enough. With the 365 I have 12 plus one in the gun and two 15 rounders.
    Good post. I went from 1911's to plastic guns for the same reasons.

    Agree with the others who say do not underestimate the capability of a pistol hitting stuff "out there". We old Bullseye shooters shot one handed at 50 yards at a 3.3" 10 ring and would hit it many times. Of course, no one shooting back, target not moving etc etc. And using target guns with good ammunition.

    With two hands and a red dot, hitting into 8" at 50 yards is quite doable.

    As to addressing a threat, DG made some good points. In fact, if I was in a store and a lunatic started shooting, I am not sure I would engage unless I and loved ones were threatened. Not sure I want to go looking for a gun fight. Here is my thinking on it. First, if the BG gets a lucky shot I am out of the battle and maybe dead. Second, I am not leaving my loved ones in case there is more than one shooter, my responsibility is to protect them. Third, even a "good shoot" can get dicey legally. Fourth, if there is another armed "hero" how does he know I am not the threat or a second lunatic when he sees me with gun drawn and moving?
    Don Verna


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    Everything depends on the circumstances, does it not? I think 50 yds. brings up the "flight or fight" question. Some, of course, due to physical impairment are unable to successfully flee. But given that ability, even if it's to depart the area of the threat to a safer location at a fast limp might be the better choice when explaining what happened (or didn't happen) to police or a jury. Given the ability to find cover, and not wearing a badge, I always thought 50 yds. was an optional limit of defense or flight, whereas the 15 yd. possible successful knife attack distance leaves no option but defense. I think 50 yd. gunfights among civilians are rare, and I'd bet that most gangstas' marksmanship isn't very good at that distance. Well, just some thoughts.......

    DG
    For the most part I agree, I tell my grown kids and spouses that their carry weapons are for defense of you and yours, and flee if possible and if not hide and be ready to do what they have to. What they are not is offensive. A seven shot single stack 9mm may not be the best possible answer to run towards gunfire with.
    Even still the OP's description of a possible 50 yd situation is not out of the realm of possibility so it wouldn't hurt to find out through practice if you and your gun are capable of accurate shots at that distance. If not that will dictate what you should do if ever put there.
    As far as the bad guys level of accuracy, I agree not that good most times, but.... when listing to the news it's the bad guys wild shots that usually wind hurting or killing an innocent bystander.
    Tony

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmi48219 View Post
    I did that by accident a couple days ago. 90 degrees and the range was empty. Decided I didn’t need muffs to walk down range, set up my target and return to the bench. Forgot about them as took careful aim and touched off a shot, out of a 7mm mag!
    Fortunately I don’t think I suffered much long term hearing loss. I’ve been hard of hearing for a long time.

    As far as the thread subject, I can’t remember the last time I shot a pistol beyond 25 yards. It may not be a major concern during a SD incident but in some places a DA would question whether you were in mortal danger from an assailant 30 yards away. Just saying.
    Just to point out, if it were to be an issue at law, there are several videos showing people shooting handguns at ranges longer than 50 yards and scoring hits. Look 'em up and look at them now, so they will be admissible as to establishing the reasonableness of your behavior based on prior knowledge. Jerry Miculek has one where he hits a 200 yard target with a j-frame smith. Hickock 45 has many of him shooting and hitting a gong at 80 yards.

    But it would be very hard to justify deadly force against an individual not armed with a projectile weapon at distances greater than 30 feet. An exception might be if you saw your child, spouse, servant, master, parent or other person whom you had a legal right to protect being assaulted at a greater distance by someone armed with a knife, or potentially lethal impact weapon and you could establish that only by shooting the individual could you stop the attack. But that would be roughly the opposite of the luck involved in winning the lottery!
    Last edited by rintinglen; 07-01-2022 at 07:21 PM.
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  6. #26
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    All handguns are not equal and all handgun shooters are not equal. My have scoped Contenders and XP-100 that 300-yard prairie dogs are easy from a rest. What you have for equipment and what your abilities are determines realities distances. If you think 21 feet is a long way and that is how you practice chances of ever improving is slim.

    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Agree with the others who say do not underestimate the capability of a pistol hitting stuff "out there". We old Bullseye shooters shot one handed at 50 yards at a 3.3" 10 ring and would hit it many times. Of course, no one shooting back, target not moving etc etc. And using target guns with good ammunition.

    With two hands and a red dot, hitting into 8" at 50 yards is quite doable.
    With my current carry Sig 365XL and red dot I can somewhat better consistently.

    In the late 70's I shot with the North American PPC champions. What they could do at 50 yards double action was my first eye opener as to handgun capability in skilled hands.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 06-30-2022 at 02:42 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  7. #27
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    We'll just hope that those bag guys keep holding their Glocks sideways and never figure out what the sights are for!

    DG

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Good post. I went from 1911's to plastic guns for the same reasons.

    Agree with the others who say do not underestimate the capability of a pistol hitting stuff "out there". We old Bullseye shooters shot one handed at 50 yards at a 3.3" 10 ring and would hit it many times. Of course, no one shooting back, target not moving etc etc. And using target guns with good ammunition.

    With two hands and a red dot, hitting into 8" at 50 yards is quite doable.

    As to addressing a threat, DG made some good points. In fact, if I was in a store and a lunatic started shooting, I am not sure I would engage unless I and loved ones were threatened. Not sure I want to go looking for a gun fight. Here is my thinking on it. First, if the BG gets a lucky shot I am out of the battle and maybe dead. Second, I am not leaving my loved ones in case there is more than one shooter, my responsibility is to protect them. Third, even a "good shoot" can get dicey legally. Fourth, if there is another armed "hero" how does he know I am not the threat or a second lunatic when he sees me with gun drawn and moving?



    I am thinking the same as you are in a store stetting. If they were close to me and I was behind the BG I would consider picking them up and slamming them down hard onto the floor rather than shooting. This is assuming they are an average sized person. I do practice with my J-Frames at various distances out to at least 35 yds and shoot at my gong just for fun at distances from 100 to 165 yds.

  9. #29
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    My J frame is a fire extinguisher. It’s good for small problems and preventing small problems from becoming big ones. There are situations where it will be inadequate to deal with the problem. I'm too old to pretend otherwise.
    ”We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, yet they are still lying.” –Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by imashooter2 View Post
    My J frame is a fire extinguisher. It’s good for small problems and preventing small problems from becoming big ones. There are situations where it will be inadequate to deal with the problem. I'm too old to pretend otherwise.
    insightful answer!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mk42gunner View Post
    One other thing that makes sense to me is to practice your weak hand shooting.

    Robert
    I think some practice but I would not spend a lot of time on it. The chances up here of getting into a gun fight are beyond slim and none. That said, I suspect that if I were to be shot in my strong arm...anywhere I wont be popping rounds off weak handed. Shock, blood loss and pain might have me out of the fight. I suppose there are other scenarios where weak hand shooting might be envisioned. It seems to me the average gun fight in the US lasts about 3 to 4 rounds. Planning for what is more likely has some merit.

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  12. #32
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    Range report from the 4th of July.
    S&W Shield at 50 yds. 4 inch's high and 3 inch's right of aiming point, within the center mass. Group size around 5 inch's.
    Glock 43X with optic, dead center where the dot was.
    Glock 43 iron sights, basically center about 4/5 inch's high. same group size as the Shield just more center on target.
    Larger Iron sight guns with 4 and 6 inch barrels, multiple calibers, we could say on a 7x11 swinger at 50 no problems.

    Going back to the Shield and Irons I may have to drift the sights a little to match the POI of the 43.
    Tony

  13. #33
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    In 25 years of LE training I have seen shifted emphasis. When I first started we did a fair amount of handgun training at 25, 35 and 50 yards with about our half the round count and the majority of the remainder a 3,7 and 15 yards.

    The training doctrine changed based on analysis of shootings truthfully were inside 5 yards for the most part. There was a lot more shove and shoot from the hip, flash sight picture shooting near in. 50 yards was all about gone with the service pistol. That was shotgun turf about the last third of my career. Then carbines all the way in close to 100 yards.

    Being able to make pistol hits at 50 was very important when I first started. I was also one of the early guys that was never issued a revolver. The revolver practices certainly hung on for years. In fact I think the state minimum qual course was all six shot based even when I retired a few years ago and that too dropped 50 yards entirely. We had our own overly complex course on multiple targets with round counts spread unevenly on your target pair, but occasionally would shoot the easier state basic course every few years just to say we did it.

    Being able to hit at 50 even if it is i timed slow practice is a skill builder. If you can use the fundamentals to hold on 50 then 15 is simple.

    My carry gun is a 43x and spare mags. If I expect more trouble,....I ain’t going! I do sometimes carry a cZ Po7 with a lot more capacity.

  14. #34
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    "Being able to hit at 50 even if it is i timed slow practice is a skill builder. If you can use the fundamentals to hold on 50 then 15 is simple."

    Lance, I agree, once we started playing around at fifty and 100 yds the short line got much easier. I was actually surprised how well I did with the shield and 43. I really doubt I will ever have to engage a 50 yd target with my EDC gun but it doesn't hurt to practice.

    The 43x with optics was my buddy's gun and "holy cow" we stayed in the ten ring of a 50 yd repair center with a two hand hold, slow fire. We are both Bullseye shooters which is one hand only but still the little gun delivered. I may have to reconsider the optic's route on a EDC.
    Tony

  15. #35
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    Aye yi yi yi yiii.

    Today was a learning experience, but an unpleasant one. Of my regular carry guns, only one put its shots close to point of aim. My 1961, nickel- plated, Detective Special did OK, though the shiny sights had me longing for a magic marker. But my LCP, My Cobra, and my Mustang Pocketlite were pitiful at 50 yards. Now to be fair, I expected nothing from the LCP. In previous shooting, by the time I got to 15 yards, I'd better be shooting at washtubs, but the Pocketlite I had higher hopes for. But it was hitting 10-12 inches left, 6-8 low and as for groups, well I guess they all hit somewhere in Albemarle County.

    The Cobra needs decent grips. The ones it has now are too slippery, though they look mighty nice. I have a set of Pachmayrs somewhere in my stuff that will be going on it before we come back out next week.

    But the surprise came with my DYI J&G Sales Model 10 snubbie. They had gunsmith specials: foreign service, round-butt Model 10's that had had the barrels removed. I bought one, ordered a barrel from Jack First and had my local gunsmith put the two together. It came out pretty well, so I bought a second. The 2nd one was a little rough--the grips looked like they'd been drug down a gravel road. I had a Model 64 2 inch barrel for some time, waiting for a beater 4 inch to show up to become a snubbie. I installed that barrel myself, using a 13 MM washer with 280 grit sand paper glued to it as a poor man's lathe to remove enough metal from the barrel shoulder to allow me to tighten it up the rest of the way. I gave it a coat of Brownell Aluma-hyde II and put a set of pachmayr compacs on it. It is not a regular carry gun for me, but it should be. I put the last five rounds I had with me into a nice, well-centered group, that was only about 4 inches below POA at 50 yards. I'll post a pick when I hunt up my camera.

    Anyway, I strongly encourage you to take a few shots at extended ranges, if only to determine where to hold should your next 4th of July party attract the ire of some refugee from a Cuckoo Clock and you find yourself playing counter-sniper with your EDC.
    Last edited by rintinglen; 07-06-2022 at 10:24 PM.
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  16. #36
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    rintinglen, Interesting that your compact EDC hit low and both of mine hit high. I am guessing its the difference in how we each hold the gun.
    I have no idea how Glock and Smith regulate their sights, both of mine have the three dot system. I did use the longer mag to catch my little finger. both of mine are on between 7 and 15 yds. and at 25 I can stay on a round 5 inch swinger most shots.
    I forgot to take my model 15 snub, so now I am forced to go do another test this weekend with it. It has adj. sights so I think setting them at 25 and see what happens at 50.
    Tony

  17. #37
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    Sounds like adjustable sights are not necessarily optional on a carry gun anymore. If you can't at least drift the rear sight for windage there's no way you could reliably reach out to "mass shooting defense" distances.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daekar View Post
    Sounds like adjustable sights are not necessarily optional on a carry gun anymore. If you can't at least drift the rear sight for windage there's no way you could reliably reach out to "mass shooting defense" distances.
    Yes sir I agree. The K frame in 38 special is a little big for me for IWB EDC. But as an OWB weekend carry it doesn't bother me. Around the farm I usually carry a Uberti bisley in 44 special, 4.75 inch. I shoot it alot and am comfortable out to 75 yds. The shield and glock 43 the sights will drift for windage but the front sights are wide and cover so much of a target at 50, any precision work is pretty much useless in my hands. I am going to drift my rear on the shield to center at 50 (windage) and check to see if anything changed at 15.
    This thread got me to thinking if Ruger would take the rear adj. sp101 4 inch gunsight and put it on a 2.75 or 3 inch that might be the perfect EDC revolver.
    Tony

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABJ View Post
    This thread got me to thinking if Ruger would take the rear adj. sp101 4 inch gunsight and put it on a 2.75 or 3 inch that might be the perfect EDC revolver.
    Tony
    Well it's not a Ruger, but there are two other options. S&W sells a 3" J-frame in 357mag with fully adjustable sights, and that's what I carry. I love it, the only thing "wrong" with it is that it only holds 5 shots.
    Alternatively, you could get the Kimber K6S 3" and buy the target adjustable sights straight from Kimber, and just swap them out. It's the more expensive option, but you get target sights and 6 rounds in a small wheelgun.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  20. #40
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    There is a LAUNDRY LIST of "other considerations" mentioned by posters, all of which deserve due consideration. ONE possibility that I haven't seen specifically discussed is the asymmetry of armament that unfolds between the defender and the attacker.
    The most recent active shooters used AR15-pattern rifles in perpetrating their atrocities, not sidearms. Unless the defender enters the intended zone of attack with a rifle on their shoulder or in their shopping cart, they are already at a disadvantage to the perpetrator. The defender's sidearm is less powerful, harder to shoot well, and has roughly half the magazine capacity (at best) than the attacker's weapon.
    The "fight vs. flee" dilemma suddenly looms large in the decision-making process. Evading the field of fire seems the best decision, but HOW to leave it becomes another consideration. Simply running away and leaving the creep's gunfire unanswered almost always results in further injury and death.
    Unless a great many things magically go exactly right (which almost never happens under fire), I'M not likely able to fire a disabling shot into a creep at 50 yards, while under cover. I CAN, however, direct enough rounds NEAR said creep to likely make him reconsider sticking his head up again to fire more rounds. The short interval during which said creep is "reconsidering his career choices" can be life-saving for would-be victims whose only defense is flight and evasion.
    Even if I AM armed with a rifle, I'M not inclined to shoot it out with an active shooter, when I have the option of leaving in relative safety (that's for people who get PAID to do it). But suppressive fire CAN be life-saving, and should not be dismissed as an option if:
    1.) It can be done from a position of relative safety.
    2.) More innocent lives are likely to be lost, BUT FOR making the creep keep his head (and rifle) down.

    One last thing:
    SUPPRESSIVE FIRE does not equal "SPRAY & PRAY"! The defender must force himself to aim and fire as carefully and deliberately as circumstances allow, balanced against the fleeting intervals in which the creep may expose himself to gunfire. If the defender manages to connect with a shot, so much the better. He may shorten the crisis.
    However, landing multiple rounds close enough to the attacker to interrupt his machinations is the more realistic goal. Once the area is clear of innocent persons, the need for suppression gives way to the need for evasion and letting the sworn professionals (who, we hope, have arrived, buy then) pick up the fight.

    Anyway, this occurred to me, and I didn't see it mentioned in other posts.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

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