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Thread: Dance with the one you brought

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master
    rintinglen's Avatar
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    Dance with the one you brought

    Now, one of my pet peeves, one that always makes my eyes roll, is the wide spread notion that as long as you, and your gun, are reasonably accurate at short range, you are good to go. “There’s no need for me to work at anything more than 21 feet, my (fill in the blank: snubbie, compact, micro etc.), will work to get him off me.” As if we get to choose where and when we will be forced to defend ourselves. It may well be that most shootings take place inside of 7 yards, but consider. It is just over 50 yards from my front porch to the street. If I am sitting out there drinking a cool ice tea and some yahoo decides to conduct a drive by, mistaking my house for somebody else’s, my choice of response is limited to what’s in my holster. I’m too old and slow to run. Likewise, suppose the robber initially confronts you at double arm’s length, but when you whip out your roscoe, he runs across the street, then turns and starts shooting. Again, if you are going to shoot back, what you have is what you’ll use. Consequently, it behooves us to at least occasionally stretch our range, if for no other reason than to see where our gun hits. (More about that in a minute).

    Consequently, I set an ANT-4, law enforcement target up at the 50 meter line at our gun club, and I proceeded to run a few rounds down range with my S&W 640. My normal defense load in this gun is the factory Remington 125 grain +p, JHP that was the LAPD issue round for years. I have used it before for qualification and know that my 640 shoots pretty close to center with that, albeit about 4 inches low at 25 yards. But I only have a partial box left, and no way of telling when or if I can get more, so I am loath to expend a bunch of what little I have left in an experiment that might be useless. So I got some 148 grain wad cutter ammo that I had loaded and which I have plenty of, and decided to use that.

    Well, I figured it would hit little higher than my JHP +p, but my fuzzy recollection of PPC sight adjustments in years gone by made me aim just at the bottom of the neck on Mr. Bad Guy Target and I carefully fired 5 rounds DA two-handed standing. Imagine my chagrin when all five hit High above my POA by about 6 inches, and left by 10. One was completely off the target. You can see the 4 shots that found paper marked by black pasters. If I had been shooting for reals, I’d have missed him completely.

    However, with that information, I proceeded to fire 15 shots, 3 cylinders worth. 14 would have found flesh, though only about 9 would have inflicted seriously dangerous wounds. One would have missed him over his left shoulder. I walked away from this experiment convinced that my primary carry guns need to be tested by me to assure that I can hit something at distance, and to make certain that they hit somewhere close to point of aim with the ammo I am carrying.

    My next project after this is to find my 125 grain mold and see if I can develop a practice load that approximates my carry load for this gun.


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    My Smith 640 38 Special
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    Mr. Bad Guy.
    Last edited by ShooterAZ; 06-29-2022 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Covid/Politics
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master AnthonyB's Avatar
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    I applaud your idea of stretching the range with your carry revolver. I routinely shoot my carry pistols out to 100 yards at man sized steel targets and connect often enough to surprise many. That said, if anyone shot at me with a handgun from 50+ yards I would be moving to a rifle instead of shooting back.
    Tony

  3. #3
    Boolit Master AnthonyB's Avatar
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    And all of your shots would have convinced the bad guy he had somewhere else to be at that particular moment.

  4. #4
    Curious Caster
    Daekar's Avatar
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    This is why I insist on training with the load I will carry (so invest in a mold good enough to carry) and stick with a gun with adjustable sights. There is no way that I am going to be able to gracefully judge Kentucky windage when under stress.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Training and practice are important.

    I am guilty of not shooting my carry pistols past 15 yards.
    Don Verna


  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I occasionally hunt wood chucks with my carry gun. I normally practice at 25 yds with my sw 640. the sig 238 and my others.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I practice out to 75 yards (.45 ACP & 9mm), not because I expect to ever have to engage someone at range, but because it tends to make me better and faster at shorter ranges. Not sure what's going on, there, but I can attest to the results. I can also sure tell a difference in marksmanship when I DO NOT practice at longer ranges.
    Perhaps in my younger days, I could have kept 14/15 rounds on a torso at 50 yards with a 2" snubby, but no longer. Reading this thread makes me want to try it again, though!
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Rintinglen, Amen!
    And good shooting too.

    I think 50 yards is entirely within the realm of reality. Just count 60 steps (roughly 50 yards for an average man) next time you’re in Walmart, a grocery store, a restaurant, a parking lot or wherever you go.

    If you have to join a gunfight in progress in one of those places, you’ll need to quickly hit the bad guy(s) and miss the others. That’s not a time to wonder if you can hit.
    Last edited by shooting on a shoestring; 06-30-2022 at 07:23 AM. Reason: Fixed bad math as pointed out by Stubshaft.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooting on a shoestring View Post
    Rintinglen, Amen!
    And good shooting too.

    Just count 17 steps (roughly 50 yards for an average man).
    The average length of a man's pace or step is 30". You would need much more than 17 steps.
    Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!

    When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master


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    I agree. I sight all my fighting pistols in at 50 yards for this very reason.

    "moving to a rifle." IF you can. If.

    Another point of reality that most miss is shooting their carry piece without ear pro. In a fight you probably won't be wearing any and it's good to know what it's like. Especially for those who carry short .357s with mag ammo. I tried that once and damn near dropped the gun. I would have been out of the fight right there. The new .30 Super Carry will be worse.
    Cogito, ergo armatum sum.

    (I think, therefore I'm armed.)

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Yes the muzzle blast is bad. If you haven't fired your gun without hearing protection, you need to, at least once.

    Then try a .357 at night. We did that one time just to see what it was like. At least I know the bad guy will be blind for a few seconds.......and I have to remember to close one eye

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    Yes the muzzle blast is bad. If you haven't fired your gun without hearing protection, you need to, at least once…..
    I did that by accident a couple days ago. 90 degrees and the range was empty. Decided I didn’t need muffs to walk down range, set up my target and return to the bench. Forgot about them as took careful aim and touched off a shot, out of a 7mm mag!
    Fortunately I don’t think I suffered much long term hearing loss. I’ve been hard of hearing for a long time.

    As far as the thread subject, I can’t remember the last time I shot a pistol beyond 25 yards. It may not be a major concern during a SD incident but in some places a DA would question whether you were in mortal danger from an assailant 30 yards away. Just saying.
    Last edited by Bmi48219; 06-30-2022 at 01:46 AM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master



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    I've been handgun hunting and competitive shooting for a very long time. Most people sell handgun capability way too short IMHO.

    My current carry gun is a Sig 365XL with a Holosun 507K X2 red dot on it. I have it sighted for 50 yards. Yes, it's a micro compact but the trigger is very good for a striker fired gun and it shoots very well. The 9mm only has 2 inches drop at 50 yards. No, it's not a match 1911 but it groups well at 50 yard and particularly well fired when from a rest.

    As the number of mass shootings go up the traditional SD range ideas are becoming somewhat dated. On the other hand, if I go really small like my early Ruger LCP 380 it has very limited accuracy and range. It doesn't shoot to POI, it has a lossy trigger & sights and the gun itself is not very accurate. Even for normal SD much past 30 feet becomes problematic for shooter/gun accuracy combination.

    The LCP had seen a lot of carry primarily since it's so compact. Nowadays 99% of my carry is with then the Sig 365XL or something larger.

    I changed my carry habits and requirements greatly after having to go into the riot areas during and after the 2020 Mpls riots. I have a couple of 5 shot S&W and Ruger revolvers I shoot well that I liked to carry. They have not been used for carry since dealing with the riots. When I carried the revolvers five in the cylinder and 5 in a speed strip seemed like enough. With the 365 I have 12 plus one in the gun and two 15 rounders.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 06-30-2022 at 05:23 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master
    Mk42gunner's Avatar
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    One other thing that makes sense to me is to practice your weak hand shooting.

    Robert

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Shooting on a shoestring took the words right out of my mouth. Dept. store isles can easily be over 40 yds. and parking lots as well. I will have to admit that a 50 yd shot with my S&W Shield is not pretty. I think I will invest in some full size bad guy targets this weekend and try again.
    But, If I were inclined to carry a 3 or 4 inch revolver my 44 special guns are surprisingly accurate at 50. I may have to look into a 3 inch bulldog. I am so used-to carrying the small shield a revolver might take some getting used to.
    I think we should keep the thread going, since this is the July 4th weekend, and report back next wk on how we do at 50yds. Like M-Tecs said most of us are not carrying 1911's.
    Tony

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy Wag's Avatar
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    Count me as one who agrees with the need to practice at long ranges. Fifty yards for a hand gun is definitely "long range!"

    Take into consideration, though, other elements of a shoot (at the risk of being Captain Obvious):

    - High adrenaline. It's going to mess up your shooting, even at close range.
    - Moving target. If you can get to a range that has target stand which will move the target around, it will help.
    - Target that shoots back. Can't practice this in real life, of course, but do everything else you can to train, of course.
    - Hearing impairment. That first shot is going to make it tough to hear, including any law enforcement commands to you.
    - Vision. That fireball can be intense!

    Of course, it all applies to long and short range.

    Frankly, having to shoot someone who's shooting at me is not something I want to do and I doubt I'll ever be fully trained or ready to do so.

    --Wag--
    "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy Wag's Avatar
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    One of the best stories out there of a long-range shot: https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-co...-crazed-gunman

    “For a guy to keep his composure and holding two horses with one hand and taking a one-hand shot with the other hand, it says a lot about the training and professionalism of our police department,” Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo said to the Austin American-Statesman.
    --Wag--
    "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master FISH4BUGS's Avatar
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    How about a Ruger old model 3 screw 7 1/2 44 mag at 200 yards from a rest with iron sights at a 24" round steel?
    On a good day, i hit 2 out of 6. On an average day I hit 1 out of 6.
    They are ALL close enough to keep someone's head down!
    Don't sell your handguns short!
    Last edited by FISH4BUGS; 07-01-2022 at 11:55 AM.
    Collector and shooter of guns and other items that require a tax stamp, Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FISH4BUGS View Post
    How about an old model 3 screw 7 1/2 44 mag at 200 yards from a rest with iron sights at a 24" round steel?
    On a good day, i hit 2 out of 6. On an average day I hit 1 out of 6.
    They are ALL close enough to keep someone's head down!
    Don't sell your handguns short!
    I have been able to break standard clay birds at 100 yards standing 2 handed and gallon jugs at 200 from seated backrest with a Bisley Hunter model. 44 and full snort loads. But I am weird and dry fire almost every day.

    Handguns are vastly underrated. Ross Seyfried wrote about hitting rabbit size critters in excess of 100 yards with a 2.5" model 66 and I believe him.
    You'll go far providin' you ain't burnt alive or scalped."

    Will Geer as Bear Claw in "Jeramiah Johnson"

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    I don't remember the last time I shot a handgun at less than 25 yards.
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

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