Dance with the one you brought

[robertbank]

Welcome to Uganda.

Man some of your realities are amazing given the 49th is all that separates us. We get most of the news about these mass shootings up here that are used to justify Trudeaus new gun bans. That said it is what it is.

I question any civilian taking action such as returning fire in any of these mass shootings. Why? Well, when the well trained street officer arrives on the scene I am quite certain he is most likely going to take on anyone firing rounds in the area and that most likely would be YOU! Flee at the first sign of rifle fire would be the smart option. Not sure returning fire would be my last option but it sure would be close to the last.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families and your country as a whole. It is sad what we are seeing in front of our eyes.

Take Care and be Safe

Bob

[Kosh75287]

[Daekar]

Well, we know what it looks like when the men of a society abdicate their responsibility to protect it and those they are duty bound to put first...

[robertbank]

Well, we know what it looks like when the men of a society abdicate their responsibility to protect it and those they are duty bound to put first...

So you think, likely being shot by a police officer while you wail away with your pocket pea shooter at a bad guy 100 yards or more away is a more ethical and responsible choice for your family, particularly if your child is with you or have I miss read your post.

I think you watch to many movies.

Highland Park and the recent Texas School shooting are reminders of how horrific humans can be towards each other. Our village idiot in the Prime Ministers Office will continue to push his anti-gun agenda on the backs of these poor victims. Our hearts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

On a more topical point what do US courts think of defensive shootings beyond 25 yards? Would it not take a special circumstance to claim use of deadly force was necesary to defend yourself. As I understand it most shootings take place within 5 to 10 yards and few beyond 25. (mass shootingd being the exception).

Take Care

Bob

[Kosh75287]

I don't know what the set-up was in Highland Park (Illinois), and I've never set foot in the Uvalde school. But if it's at all like the ones I've walked in the rest of Texas during my public education, main corridors would run 50 yards easily, and sometimes 75 yards. The need to make a shot at distances exceeding 25 yards, while unlikely, is certainly not out of the question. Ditto a WalMart, Home Depot, Lowe's, a major shopping mall, and a host of other public venues.
I'm not an attorney, but I have some passing familiarity with Texas law concerning the use of lethal force. The operative question comes down to whether it was reasonable for me to be "in fear for my life" or that of an innocent party from someone or something at whatever range I decide to engage them/it. If an active shooter is shooting at me from 25 yards with an AR-type (or any OTHER) rifle, you can bet your family jewels, I WILL ENGAGE.
If I've messed around and let someone with lethal intent get within 5 or 10 yards of me, I've REALLY messed up and overlooked A GREAT MANY things around me that I never should have. If I'm in a confrontation that hasn't yet turned into a firefight, I may not "start the festivities" at 25 yards, but the aggressor(s) will not get within 10 yards of me before they know I'm armed and and ready to end their existence(s) to maintain my own.

INTERESTING to ME that these things seem not at all apparent to you folks living on the OTHER side of the 49th. Then again, there's LOTS about my Canadian cousins which still mystify me.

[Daekar]

So you think, likely being shot by a police officer while you wail away with your pocket pea shooter at a bad guy 100 yards or more away is a more ethical and responsible choice for your family, particularly if your child is with you or have I miss read your post.

I think you watch to many movies.

Highland Park and the recent Texas School shooting are reminders of how horrific humans can be towards each other. Our village idiot in the Prime Ministers Office will continue to push his anti-gun agenda on the backs of these poor victims. Our hearts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

On a more topical point what do US courts think of defensive shootings beyond 25 yards? Would it not take a special circumstance to claim use of deadly force was necesary to defend yourself. As I understand it most shootings take place within 5 to 10 yards and few beyond 25. (mass shootingd being the exception).

Take Care

Bob

I don't watch TV, and rarely any movies, especially violent ones.

I think it's impossible to say whether or not a given situation is one where the best solution is to pull your carry gun. There are infinite permutations, many of which are appropriate situations to draw your gun and many which are not. I would never argue for endangering others unnecessarily or engaging when the mental math tells you it's a losing situation, but I do think it's important to do that mental math rather then deciding ahead of time that I will never help others in those situations. I also think this thread alone has covered enough examples that practicing 50 yard shots is a good plan.

I don't think the US courts would look well on self defense cases where the attacker is 50 yards away and you're the only involved party... but that's not what was under discussion. If there is clearly an active shooter situation where many lives are at risk then I don't think the courts are going to bat an eye about the range.

[rintinglen]

The distance, save for determining the reasonableness of your action, is largely irrelevant, in the context of a shooting situation.

In Virginia, where I now reside, there are 4 factors involved in judging whether deadly force is justified. You must have a reasonable belief that the use of force was justified, there must be an overt act that puts you or another in danger of being assaulted, and the assault must threaten severe injury or death, and finally, you must use only the force reasonably necessary to forestall the attack. Virginia is a stand-your-ground state, so you have no affirmative duty to withdraw from a location where you have a legal right to be.

A mere fear does not justify the use of force. Even if third parties have warned that an individual is out to get you, even if he has verbally threatened you, unless and until he actually does something to initiate an attack force may not be reasonably used. The attacker must be sufficiently close for his manifestly intended assault to at least be possible of success. A party, regardless of threats or actions, armed with a impact or contact weapon, must be "in range" before force can be used. Finally, the force used must be reasonable and must cease when the assailant is deterred. You may not give a finishing shot, or continue to pummel someone who has stopped fighting. Your use of force is merely to protect yourself from harm, not to punish or get revenge for the attackers actions.
Under Virginia law, you may use force, including deadly force, to protect another, so long as that person could legally defend him or herself. In other states, there are specific individuals who one can defend, "Children, siblings, parents, grand parents, spouses, masters, servants, and persons acting in loco parentis". Your states law may differ. Know them.

In any shooting situation involving firearms, however, you may reasonably apprehend death or serious injury. Although the quote derives from California Law, "You can't shoot someone a little bit," it has universal application. Any bullet wound has the potential to seriously and permanently injure, and therefore deadly force is nearly always excusable or justifiable, if a firearm is threatened or displayed. Likewise, the distance is virtually irrelevant. Even a lowly 22 can travel up to 1.5 miles. You have to be pretty far off to be beyond the maximum range.

If you are being shot at, you can shoot back legally. You can try to run away. You can hide under a table or behind a car and hope the responding officers will save your bacon. However, most of us here who have undertaken the time and effort to secure the training to get or maintain a CCW permit have made a decision wherein we want to at least have the option of armed self defense. Having the option, it behooves us to develop the skill to effectively use it.

Plus, it's a good reason to get out and do some shooting. Standing on your hindlegs popping off a few rounds at 50 yards will give you an idea what you and your gun can do. Even if you never use it, it is a neat thing to brag about when you are back in the clubhouse with your buddies.

[robertbank]

Daekar I agree one should always, when possible, to help others. My point was that in a mass shooting environment pulling your gun while dressed in civilian clothing more likely got you shot by the arriving police officers than not. I would think that would be particularly true if you were obviously shooting at targets off in the distance where the target was not obvious.

Self preservation and those of your family would trump most situations I would think. Pulling a pocket pistol out in a mass shooting incident me, in my view, might be concidered police assisted suicide.

Take Care

Bob

[shooting on a shoestring]

When I was 13 and got my first 357 Dad had a talk with me.

One of his points was to never use a gun to stop a situation unless I was willing to give my life to stop it. Because, the other guy might kill me or a jury might not see it as I did and give me a death sentence. Now let’s add to that the responding cops might mistake me for the aggressor. Ok. Got it.

After seeing the Uvalde disaster, where the cops didn’t fire a shot at the active shooter killing kids for nearly an hour and a half after they arrived, makes me question how valid a concern there is to being shot by a cop period. Seems they have turned to taking the wait and see approach these days.

As for how the courts view distance in a shooting. They don’t consider it in Texas. In Texas for a shooting to be justifiable the aggressor has to display intent, ability and opportunity to do you or a third party physical harm. There are no limits placed on how close or far away the bad guy is when he’s doing his bad stuff.

[Txcowboy52]

I sight mine at 50yds and practice from 3yds to 100yds using both hands !

[charlie b]

The only useful part of this thread is that shooting at longer ranges is a good thing. If you are going to carry then at least know how well you can shoot WITH YOUR CARRY GUN. Be sure to do some shooting after a short run back and forth on the range.

If you have not participated in an IPSC type event it can be an eye opener, especially when using your carry gun and holster. Yes, if you carry IWB or ankle then that is what you should train with. Reloads from your pocket or wherever you carry spare ammo.

When you might engage an active shooter and when you might not is simply a personal decision. Just make sure you are aware of all of your local laws, including any that might be used in a lawsuit subsequent to any engagement and criminal trial.

[MUSTANG]

I believe that too many people worry about the things that are less important than those that are more important. Some thoughts from this thread.

1. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

2. If I am forced into a confrontation involving the use of a firearm, Change of Venue will be in my thoughts for some areas.

3. Ride to the sound of the Guns. An old thought from many decades/centuries ago. A modern corollary is that there are three types of people in this world: (a) Those who will cower when danger arises and neighbors, Friends, Family are threatened, (b) those who will flee/stand and watch it happen, (c) and those who will take action. I have been blessed in my life on more than one occasion to be the last; hopefully I will never be in the category of the first.

4. I prefer a .45ACP when carrying, although it might actually be something in between a 22Lr to the .45ACP during moderate to warm weather or dependent upon social surroundings.

5. Some discussion of distance has been made - a .45 ACP will only drop 18 Inches at 100 yards. With practice, one can engage human sized targets with a .45 ACP or other hand firearms successfully. (Got into that discussion with son #3 who was a Las Vegas Metro Cop - he was amazed when I said it and proved it with him shooting and "Training" him on the weekends. Not exactly the training most police departments will do.

6. I can live with myself if I have to take out a BAD GUY/GAL protecting my neighbors, friends, family in their or my defense; even should result in unwarranted jail/prison time. I could never live with myself being that person in description #2 (Standing by doing nothing) or description #3 (Cowering in the corner or under a piece of furniture doing nothin).


We all live our lives and make our choices - sometimes fate may thrust us into undesired situations - the make up of our personalities and backgrounds will show during those times of fate.

[Catshooter]

Robert,

As it happens, your opinions are not matched by the facts here in the US.

It's never a good idea to comment to much on situations that occur far away in another country as what happens is too far away, difficult to understand and most of all, one's only source of info is the media. Mark Twain, who died a long time ago said that if you don't read the papers, (the only media at the time) you're uninformed. If you do read them, you're misinformed.

Many of us knew that here, but it took President Trump to really start to open a lot of peoples' eyes.

Can a good guy get shot at a mass shooting by the cops? Sure, and it's happened. But there's also been more cases where the good guy didn't get shot and saved God alone knows how many lives. Lots.

And distance almost never has any bearing on whether it's a good shoot or not.

Stick to things Canadian. I'm sure you do fine there.

[robertbank]

Catchooter thanks for the reminder. Given every mass shooting in the US has a profound effect on our Gov'ts desire to remove our guns from us it is not fair for you to suggest we up here should just ignore what goes on in the US. Too, I have a sister and several cousins who are Americans so It isn't like I am totally unconcerned personally. Family does matter.

The Texas incident is bizzarre. The most shocking mass shooting occurred up here in the late 1980's when 18 or 19 female engineering students were murdered in their classroom while police waited outside for the gun fire to subside. That is when North American Police Departments changed their protocols regarding when action should be taken when such incidents take place. There will be enough naval gazing over the Texas incident to satisfy most and hopefully we see or hear of no more similar incidents....but we all know we will.

Unlike some here, I am not prepared to prejudge anyone's decision to either participate or not when the shooting starts. No one here knows what they will do until they are faced with the situation. All the internet swagger matters not.

If it doesn't trouble you that it would be difficult to find a comparable to the number of mass shooting that take place in the US and your only answer is to arm up then it suggests to me their is little hope for the situation to ever change.

Why is your situation very much Canadian. Our AR's are presently banned as are our CX4 Storms, Sig MPX and CZ Scorpians all announced within days of the Texas shooting. Justification for the banning for the most part is the events in the US. The Liberals up here have taken your former Prsidents tactic that if you tell a lie often enough most people will believe it to be true. Even if we are fortunate enough to vote the present village idiot out of office in the next election it will be difficult for even a Conservative Gov't to reverse all of what the Liberals up here have done with their ineffective legislation. FYI we average 550 murders a year up here and only 250 or so involve firearms. Of the firearm incidents most are gang related against their own.

Notwithstanding the opinions expressed here I remain convinced that pulling your blaster out during a mass shooting event is a bad idea that would seldom end well for you with little affect on the shooting incident. You might be better served by assisting the injured prior to the arrival of medical teams. I am sure most here have had some medical training.

Take Care

Bob
ps Off to our monthly IDPA event FX9 and M&P in hand. Have a great week.

[MUSTANG]

Catchooter thanks for the reminder. Given every mass shooting in the US has a profound effect on our Gov'ts desire to remove our guns from us it is not fair for you to suggest we up here should just ignore what goes on in the US. Too, I have a sister and several cousins who are Americans so It isn't like I am totally unconcerned personally. Family does matter.

The Texas incident is bizzarre. The most shocking mass shooting occurred up here in the late 1980's when 18 or 19 female engineering students were murdered in their classroom while police waited outside for the gun fire to subside. That is when North American Police Departments changed their protocols regarding when action should be taken when such incidents take place. There will be enough naval gazing over the Texas incident to satisfy most and hopefully we see or hear of no more similar incidents....but we all know we will.

Unlike some here, I am not prepared to prejudge anyone's decision to either participate or not when the shooting starts. No one here knows what they will do until they are faced with the situation. All the internet swagger matters not.

If it doesn't trouble you that it would be difficult to find a comparable to the number of mass shooting that take place in the US and your only answer is to arm up then it suggests to me their is little hope for the situation to ever change.

Why is your situation very much Canadian. Our AR's are presently banned as are our CX4 Storms, Sig MPX and CZ Scorpians all announced within days of the Texas shooting. Justification for the banning for the most part is the events in the US. The Liberals up here have taken your former Prsidents tactic that if you tell a lie often enough most people will believe it to be true. Even if we are fortunate enough to vote the present village idiot out of office in the next election it will be difficult for even a Conservative Gov't to reverse all of what the Liberals up here have done with their ineffective legislation. FYI we average 550 murders a year up here and only 250 or so involve firearms. Of the firearm incidents most are gang related against their own.

Notwithstanding the opinions expressed here I remain convinced that pulling your blaster out during a mass shooting event is a bad idea that would seldom end well for you with little affect on the shooting incident. You might be better served by assisting the injured prior to the arrival of medical teams. I am sure most here have had some medical training.

Take Care

Bob
ps Off to our monthly IDPA event FX9 and M&P in hand. Have a great week.

Statistics can be interesting. Drawing conclusions from them can be quite divisive and emotional. Consider the following:

Attachment 301972


Yes, Canada has 1/3 the number of Murders of the US (Based on the murders per % of Population).

Yet; as we go South (By Country) we see dramatic escalation of the Murder rate. Why? A mix of population density (cities) where historically dense metropolitan areas have significantly greater homicide rates, more crime in general increases (maybe because of population densities?), and other factors.

Last time I went to Mexico was in 1981. Never been back and I am positive it is getting worse every year. The wife, her college friends, and husbands have gone to Canada twice the last 10 years - I would not go because of inability to have/carry a firearm. To each their own where they choose to live. I am no longer subject to my uncle (SAM) telling where I must go, and I do not want to be subject to large population centers (unless I have little/no choice); so I reside, recreate, and socialize in more remote areas and towns (both Montana and Nevada) where the threat is significantly lower and where should a threat arise; the locals see no problems with dealing with that threat. The migration of City People and their values has and will screw that locale and social values over time. My values do not change - so conflict or migration will come into play at least one more time in my life.

[Txcowboy52]

Well said Mustang, both times!

[shooting on a shoestring]

A big thank you guys for keeping it civil.

The primary reason for this board is to spread our knowledge and experience about pouring the silver stream through molds and into boolit holes. Politics are a is a chug hole.

[35remington]

Given even a fast police response time of three minutes, police time to respond is much longer than I have to make a choice about what to do. If I am so situated that things are not to my advantage I’d prefer to have an extra tool in my kit. So I feel better about carrying a RDS type pistol.

Regrets that you have happening what we are concerned about. We have always had the capabilities to carry out mass shootings in our history. The problematic thing is why it is happening now.

[Catshooter]

Robert,

Here is the latest example of a good guy killing an active shooter and not getting shot by the cops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-idRI8jQFM

[Texas by God]

Rintinglen, you got me thinking about this- so I set a 16" wide by 48" tall box upright at 40 yards.
Grabbed the two nearest pistols that would fit in my back pocket. A Shield 40 and a Taurus PT22.
I fired them quickly at the "bad skinny guy" box; first the .40- 4 hits out of 7- two were actually where I wanted all of them!
7 out of nine hits with the .22 DA only pistol.
Time for more practice for sure!

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk