Dance with the one you brought

[Wag]

Apparently, Elisjsha Dicken, who's action with his pistol, shot and killed the mass shooter at the mall in Indiana at 40 yards. He got 8 hits out of 10 shots on the target at 40 yards.

Makes me wonder how much practice he did at ranges long than that. Amazing that in that stressful situation that he was able to get the hits at all from that distance but I'm duly impressed that he was able to keep his cool and perform under pressure like that.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/19/us/el...der/index.html

--Wag--

[rintinglen]

Here are some results of further experimentation. This is one of the J&G gunsmith specials that I bought and installed a barrel on. I fired it with 158 cast HP over 4.3 grains Titegroup, a max +P load from Hodgdon.

The first group was the blue dots (left over from a yard sale.) I fired DA, slowfire, standing at 50 yards, and was very happy to see that the gun was pretty much dead on for windage. (The miss by his left ear was all me--the trigger could be smoother.)

Being elated at the point of impact being only a few inches high and pretty much on center, I decided to try some head shots. I fired another 5 shots slow fire aiming at his adam's apple. The vertical dispersion was the result of my 68 year old eyes having difficulty with the sun. 4 were right in there, the 5th is just over the top of the head. These are the yellow pasters.

For the next five, I fired more rapidly, trying for a Timed-Fire rate. For some reason, I pulled them a bit to the right. They are the ones in red. I reloaded and fired five more, again trying for five shots in 20 seconds, and paying more attention to the sights. Those are the green dots. I was having even more trouble with the sights fuzzing up, and called it a day. I am going to give it another go next week with my 3 inch J-frame.

[shooting on a shoestring]

That Sir, is a solid pass!
Very nice demonstration!
Thanks for posting.

Cool gun.

[Daekar]

I am going to have to do something similar to see where I am with my 3" S&W. I often shoot steel with it at ranges beyond 10 yards, but I don't do so with any attention to time beyond a vague idea that I might have a limited window to snipe a rabbit or something. I suspect it will be fine, but there's a chance that a longer barrel would be very helpful. If so, things like the Kimber K6S Target with a 4" barrel are going to start looking for appealing for CCW... Although the grips from the 2" and 3" models might be called for.

[markshere2]

Welcome to Uganda.

Man some of your realities are amazing given the 49th is all that separates us. We get most of the news about these mass shootings up here that are used to justify Trudeaus new gun bans. That said it is what it is.

I question any civilian taking action such as returning fire in any of these mass shootings. Why? Well, when the well trained street officer arrives on the scene I am quite certain he is most likely going to take on anyone firing rounds in the area and that most likely would be YOU! Flee at the first sign of rifle fire would be the smart option. Not sure returning fire would be my last option but it sure would be close to the last.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families and your country as a whole. It is sad what we are seeing in front of our eyes.

Take Care and be Safe

Bob

Well, that didn't age well, in light of the Greenwood mall events where a 22 year old civilian man used his glock to stop an AR15 shooter in minutes.

Sorry Bob, you are wrong.

Reality: Freedom is messy, but much better than tyranny.

[Electrod47]

We needed this kid at Uvalde....Kid hears gunfire.......I got to go to the sound of the gun.....Innocent looking people being shot, people running in terror......gotta get closer....stop this guy...NOW..
Literally Hundreds of cops on scene at Uvalde and none of them decided it was wise to engage the shooter...even though they were standing in an elementary school...with class's in session.

[Catshooter]

Cowards can always find a good reason to not act. Whether they are wearing a badge or not. Life is scary and dangerous. Here in America we for too long have given them a voice, pretended that "they have a point", stayed polite. It's fine for them to stay in their corner and whimper & whine, but we let them into our schools, our government. Terrible, terrible mistakes that we are now paying for.

I'm not aiming this at you Robert, you're Canadian and I have no real idea about life there. In America we've let the crazy, the cowardly and the evil in and they are having a ball. It may be too late now for us, we shall see.

[rintinglen]

Folks, please take your politics to the pit.

This thread was intended to be a discussion of carry gun capabilities at range, in the event of the rare, but not impossibly so, need to shoot defensively at ranges greater than "Long knife."

Please give your pocket, purse, or other hideout a trial at some distance and report it here.

[Catshooter]

Longer distance is fun as all get out. A couple years back I started it up again after many years not. Set up a frame that holds three 3/4 silhouette targets at 90 yards.

Shot at it with a variety of weapons and surprisingly did the best (so far) with a Glock 39. A sub-compact in .45 GAP. Got 7 hits out of ten fired. That's my best. There are times when I get zero, I can't shoot like I used to.

Fun and instructive and possibly useful too!

[charlie b]

In the old days....we used to shoot at clay pigeons, 70yds. With a good pistol we could usually hit them 25% the time (standing). Of course, my son could usually hit 50% of the time

[Bigbore5]

In my military career and as a contractor I witnessed that people react how they are trained. This has proven itself out time and again.
I was trained to identify then neutralize the threat. That could meen avoiding, retreating, or engagement. I have had to use them all in the past. Hopefully I will not be forced into those choices again.
No a Walmart is not Panama, Somalia, Iraq, or any of the other places I have been sent, but bad things happen where they happen. It's not being paranoid when the threat is real.
My daily carry now is a Colt Delta Elite worked over by Leonard Baity. It groups less than half inch at 25yds. I haven't had a single gun related stoppage yet and I shoot steal challenges regularly.
At 50 yds it is 1 1/2" low with golddot factory ammo and put 10 into 3". I compete with it, practice with it and carry it everywhere, everyday. I'm fully confident in it's capabilities and know my own limits.

[rintinglen]

These are the guns that I carry that have the capability in my hands to make a 50 yard shot.
Of the batch, the 3 inch Smith was the most accurate, though not much better than the K-frame m-10 snubbie. The Colt hung on into 3rd place, but a step back from the front runners. The Kahr surprised me, the trigger on the Kahr is not that great, but it still managed to put 5 out of five on the body of Mr. Bad Guy.

What differentiates these from the losers is that these shoot to POA, at least for windage. The two Smiths shoot very close both windage and elevation wise. The Colt nickle sights enlarge groups vertically, at least for me in the daylight sunshine, while the Kahr hits a couple inches to the right, but not enough to matter.

[rintinglen]

Not shown is my LCP.
The common element of all of these is that they don't shoot close enough to point of aim. The S&W 640 in particular is very accurate for me, but I am doubtful that in the heat of battle I could remember to hold on the left elbow of my adversary.

The Kimber is simply not accurate enough, at least in my hands, and it shoots 8-10" high. If I could guarantee that my attackers would present a target the size of a wash tub, it might do just fine

The Colt 1903 sights preclude me from obtaining consistent hits--though my first shot was as near as dead center as you could wish.

The Ruger shares with the S&W 640 the lack of correlation between point of aim and point of impact, it hits high and left.

The Agent was a major disappointment for me, as that is a gun I like and shoot well up close, but it jumps quite a bit with duty load equivalents and 3 inches off at 7 yards is more like 21" at 50.

The LCP is simply a belly gun, at least in my hands. If trouble starts and that is all I have I'll be joining the crowd seeking cover unless the bad guy is less than 30 feet away.

I will be doing some more work with the 640 seeking to find a factory/handload combination that hit closer to POA and the Ruger is going to the Gunsmith to have the barrel tweaked to see if it can be brought to join the herd. The laser on the Kimber will keep it in a strictly home defense roll, as there is no possible shot that would exceed its capabilities. At least, not in the house.

[ABJ]

Rintinglen, excellent range report. Also good shooting with the short K-frame. I have a model 15 with adj. sights, snub length, that is my next gun to try.
Tony

[rintinglen]

The 4" K-frame Pencil Barrel M-10 is not a surprise here--a 158 HP at +P velocities put 4 of five in a 4 inch group and the 5th was also a good hit, 3 of five headshots hit the bad guy's head with one a little low in the neck. It has a really good trigger but could stand to have the barrel pulled and set back. It has a fairly large barrel/cylinder gap, .009-.010 at a guess, but it shoots so well, I don't really want to tinker with it.

The Colt Detective Special put 5 in the body but not in a really tight group. That might have been me having eye fatigue issues. I do my experimenting after shooting a 90 round 22 bullseye match and I seldom can fire more than 30 or 40 shots more before the fuzzies set in.

The Pink handled Model 60 on the top right was a bit of a surprise. It also shot very close to center, albeit a few inches below the POA. I usually carry 148 grain wadcutters in it and it did not disappoint. Fifty yards taxed my ability to see the 1/10" sights, but it still did all right.

The other pinkie, my 342 did not get a chance this time out, and I haven't had a chance to cast up some lighter boolits for the 640 yet, so it is just shown for decoration.

[35remington]

I have a very similar looking pencil barrel four inch Smith (made in 1953) with hammer spur intact that hits to the sights to fifty yards, groups well, and has a much tighter BC gap. When I am feeling my oats it puts most shots under the span of my palm at fifty from a rest even with the half moon front sight which makes it a great field pistol.

Given that handloaded standard pressure full charge wadcutters do about 870 fps (3.5 BE) and standard pressure 158’s get 910 fps with Unique and Power Pistol, at least with powder near the back of the case, I feel no need for plus P (pressure anyway; my handloads actually approximate some Plus P loadings in velocity) and in fact my 1953 model is not rated for it.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a Taurus M 85 ultralight that I regularly practice with at 40 yds. I shoot at a 16" gong and I can usually hit the silly thing 5 out of 5 times with that little .38 Spcl. My EDC is a Smith Shield 2.0 EZ CT. It has a laser sight hung onto the front of the trigger guard and it is dead on at 50 feet and about 4" low at 50 yds. I ain't gonna mess with the adjustable parts of it. It works good enuf for me. Along with the smith I also pack a .44 Special Bulldog without a hammer spur as a back up. It is light enough to drop into a back pocket and is faster to deploy than to reload the smith. That bulldog is a joy to shoot with loaded down 240 gr lead hollowpoints and I usually run 5 gr of Unique in those mankillers. I do however need to practice some beyond 25 yds.

[armoredman]

The last time I stretched it out past 25 yards was when Da Boy and I tried the Eli Drill, (draw from concealment, 10 rounds, 15 seconds, 40 yards, need 8 out of 10 in the scoring rings to pass, B-27 target), and I did not do as well as I would have liked, by far.

[RJM52]

I agree. I sight all my fighting pistols in at 50 yards for this very reason.

"moving to a rifle." IF you can. If.

Another point of reality that most miss is shooting their carry piece without ear pro. In a fight you probably won't be wearing any and it's good to know what it's like. Especially for those who carry short .357s with mag ammo. I tried that once and damn near dropped the gun. I would have been out of the fight right there. The new .30 Super Carry will be worse.

...have spoken with a lot of gunfight winners and no one hears their shots...a soft pop is all anyone remembers.. From what I have read there is a protection mechanism built into the brain that "knows" what is coming and shuts down the affected system. Same difference between target shooting and having a deer jump up in front of you and run....you don't hear the shot.

Do not "test" this...you can end up with tinnitus with just one round...

As to muzzle flash...have been teaching no light/low light shooting on indoor ranges since the early 1990s...anything other than a 4" .500 S&W is a non issue.

And yes, very important to know where ones carry gun shoots out to at least 50 yards... I've carried a Colt Commander in .38 Super 99% of the time since 1980...sighted in at 50 yards I just have to put the head right on top of the sights and the bullet drops right into the A-zone at 100...

Great thread...Bob

[Thumbcocker]

Thanks for sharing the results and doing the leg work.