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Thread: Giant refrigerator problem leaking in wall of cabinet

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Giant refrigerator problem leaking in wall of cabinet

    We have a 2001 Kitchen Aid refrigerator mo# KSSS48QKX00 leaking inside cabinet wall behind evaporator in freezer section. Evaporator not showing any bubbles but plug in cabinet shows Freon leaking with H110 leak detector. The high side line leaves the tail of condenser and goes into top of back wall then to where?it eventually exits bottom near drain pan and helps heat pan to evaporate condensate, then back to top to dryer and cap tube attached to suction line.( Thermal Pipe)

    My question that I need help with is why is this tube going into the cabinet, with the return pipe is exposed under a removable panel? What is the purpose of this? Helping to sub cool for better effective
    Cooling like sub cooling? Can I bypass is or chop open cabinet from back and start pulling insulation.
    Thanks for any and all help with this.

    If I can fix this large unit I could use it for hanging a small doe to process.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  2. #2
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    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
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    That sounds like the condensate line dripping causing the flood.
    But that's the result of the problem, not the source.

    Same thing happened to me last year.
    The whole story involves more sad singing and slow walking than a New Orleans Jazz funeral.

    But the story ends with me buying a new refrigerator.


    For a bargain priced basic med. size refrigerator---
    I got one at Lowe's they list as a 'garage refrigerator' for about $600.

    In reality, it has old school knob temp. controls, no ice maker,
    top freezer with one shelf, and a plain looking stainless tell body.
    Also, the insulation on the 'box' is no better than any other cheap-ish line of refrigerators.
    When you open & close the door-- it sometimes whistles.
    It doesn't hurt anything, it's just air moving around in it, but it is a little annoying.
    Last edited by Winger Ed.; 06-28-2022 at 07:21 PM.
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


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    EVERYONE!
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    An electronic freon detector will find insulation that was made with/foamed with freon. Not all foam, just some.
    If you lost the freon, and the compressor runs:
    Recover the system (if you recover a full charge, it's not low on gas)
    Silver solder access fittings on (and remove them later)
    Pressure test with nitrogen 100# you will hear a leak.
    If it leaks, bypass the leak around the foam with new copper.
    Pressure test again.
    Vacuum, then change to the good vac pump with new oil, vacuum.
    Weigh in the charge according to the dataplate
    If you're done, bring on the can of expanding foam.

    The refrigerator was assembled piped wired then filled with foam so all the good stuff is buried.
    They are not made to be repaired.

    I was tasked to repair three fancy milk dispensers, coolers that hold a big bag o milk. They are thick stainless steel boxes worth keeping and besides, that's how the milk works. The evaporator is the inside wall, normal condenser on back, compressor underneath, like magic, no plumbing visible. At ten years old, they lost temp slowly because they plugged up their capillary tubes. Turns out R-134a will grind away a compressor into filings small enough to pass the drier, big enough grindage to stick like a bus in a tunnel. The solution to old 134a machines is to install larger longer cap tubes with serious filterdriers. Follow the plumbing, carefully picking foam, it's like brain surgery, but now we light the torch. I would spend $500 each easily on parts and labor, customer cheerfully paid.

    The cycle goes:
    compressor
    condenser
    expansion device
    evaporator
    and accessories.

    I must add that car A/C is different.
    The cycle is there, but every carmaker has an engineer who reinvents A/C.

    That box would make a great smoker...

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy Big Tom's Avatar
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    How many grains did you load it up with? ...sorry could not resist
    Quote Originally Posted by Hossfly View Post
    ... shows Freon leaking with H110 leak detector. ....
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    We bought another refrigerator from Home Depo,will be delivered the 6th of July, so they say.

    Now progress on the leaker.

    This unit in 2001 cost close to $4,000, and is 4’ wide and close to 6-7 hundred #. Moved with front end loader to my big shop for destruction or fixin.

    Had to cut the comp, and everything on top to clear door jam in house. Have since reinstalled all sealed system parts I cut, with access valves to leak test and do drop test over night. Starting at 80# tonight at 7:30 will look in am and see if has lost any pressure.

    If pressure has dropped, will bypass the condenser line that disappears into cabinet and reappears at bottom to go under condensate pan with 1/4” copper tube. Then retest until I can isolate this leak. Hope its not the thermo tube with the capillary tube.

    May end up being a storage cabinet, or smoker. LOL.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    How many grains did you load it up with? ...sorry could not resist

    Didn’t think about that being the same name as powder.(H110) i think a couple # of Goex would do a good job of opening cabinet.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    It is a testimonial to Ruger and this forum that I haven't split the Superredhawk with H110. Yet.

    The most difficult part about refrigeration is silver soldering. The Chinese use a stick of "Phoscopper" when they stick copper together. Phoscopper should be banned along with Cadmium solder, Phos uses the phos to eat oxygen while the copper alloy melts. Fine. It won't rework, you can't unsolder it the whole thing just melts. Silvabrite sticks are expensive, worth every $20 (twenties are the new nickel) at a dollar an inch.

    When you heat copper it oxidizes. Copper Oxide makes good sandpaper, it is very hard grit. Water pipe doesn't matter, the scale washes through. Refrigeration is sealed so the grit goes around and around for a very short time. Small capillary tubes are much smaller than grit. Heat pumps have a shuttle valve, a reversing valve that will get stuck. Sloppy Joe comes along, solders in a new one, burns more copper.
    Grit in a compressor is sand in an engine.
    Nitrogen purge inerts the system; we take pride in our antique very slow nitrogen regulators and we learn techniques to solder clean. Nitrogen cylinders are heavy and expensive, but if you see a tech with a torch but no nitrogen (probly waving a stick of phos) you ain't gonna get what you paid for.

    I can't work in Arizona, I don't have a green card.

  8. #8
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    If you need to cut a lot of foam out it is easy to replace, many sources for mix and pour foam kits, especially boat repair sites! Just helped a friend weld some aluminum pontoons that were damaged in that high wind event a month ago(he got them free as scrap, shortened then to take out the bad sections) then we poured in new foam to replace the old crumbled stuff. He is making a swim platform for his kids with them.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    .429 you right, the leak detector I’ve got will go off if you crumble the foam insulation.

    Currently opening the back wall out side cutting open and chunking foam. The good news is I found the suction/cap thermo pipe sitting on cold side of insulation and not near where I’m cutting. Will get more aggressive with it knowing this. Don’t like to brag but I’ve been repairing and installing copper tubing for over 40+ years. Started in high school/ Vo-tech 1971. Only thing I haven’t tried is soldering copper to aluminum, which thank goodness hasn’t come up yet. All joints on this job has been copper to copper or to steal which I’m very confident with. Thanks for all suggestions.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryB View Post
    If you need to cut a lot of foam out it is easy to replace, many sources for mix and pour foam kits, especially boat repair sites! Just helped a friend weld some aluminum pontoons that were damaged in that high wind event a month ago(he got them free as scrap, shortened then to take out the bad sections) then we poured in new foam to replace the old crumbled stuff. He is making a swim platform for his kids with them.
    Thanks MaryB, I’ve used the foam that comes in a can on an ice maker once and it was messy got it on my hands and was difficult to get off. Probably smarter now and will use rubber throw away gloves.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Carrier got the idea of an aluminum condenser, and sold them precharged, with precharged linesets. The hookup was a piercing coupling which would soon leak. We had to join a 3/8 copper to very thin aluminum tube. Carrier's fix? For warranty (no labor) they sent a tube of JBWeld and a three inch sleeve piece of 5/8 copper. It was "special" JBWeld Carrier said. Said JBWeld on the tube. De-grease very clean and shiny and JBWeld will hold 250# hot freon. Seeing is believing, JBWeld will indeed fix anything.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    I’ve learned something today as every day, the tube that is suspect is called a (yoder tube). It replaced the (mullion heater) around the freezer door where the gasket sticks. Keeps from sweating and mold from forming. It’s installed first then foamed in.

    I have sealed it off and pressured to to 80 psi, along with the compressor and evap with all other tubing at 80psi, will let sit over night and see which side leaks. Of course the (yoder tube) is only about 1-2 cubic inches so should lose pressure pretty quickly.

    If it is in the thermo tube, will continue cutting back open and breaking out foam to find and repair the leak.
    This is a nice large refrigerator freezer combo and would be a good one to keep in the reload room for storing food and such.

    The (yoder tube) can be bypassed, eliminated, with no real bad side effects, what so ever it will be in an air conditioned space anyway. How ever there is a kit that one could fish a heater wire through to add the heat if you desired to do so.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    Sheesh...I read your posts, all of them, and don't understand, but appreciate the techniques and experience herein displayed with a level of envy in the same vein as threads about lathes and DIY machining of parts. I'm a "math guy". Very good with numbers. I missed Shop in Jr. Hi and HS. I took typing though and 5-years of increasingly difficult Calculus, Differential Equations, and Matrix Methods! Dooph!

    Soldier on. I'll watch with fascination.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Hossfly said:

    I’ve learned something today as every day, the tube that is suspect is called a (yoder tube). It replaced the (mullion heater) around the freezer door where the gasket sticks. Keeps from sweating and mold from forming. It’s installed first then foamed in.

    That makes it energy efficent/ eco-friendly. Mullion heater kept the door gasket from freezing and sticking to the cabinet and tearing all to heck. Like your car in the the far north winter.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Got the (yoder) tube isolated, that was where the leak is. Bypassed with 1/4” copper retested all good. Evacuated over night charged with 7oz R-134A ran for 2 days in hot shop holding 4* in freezer and 36* in fridge. Moved into reload room, cleaned up and reassembled shelving. It will stay there till I’m gone then it will be the kids problem.
    700# gorilla is fixed cost $28.00 for new dryer and a whole lot of free labor. And left over parts from when I retired. Stuffed fiber glass insulation in back and covered with aluminum sheet.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    contender1's Avatar
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    I"m late to this discussion. But We had a similar incident a few years ago.
    Our fairly new Frig went south. A repair guy said the leak was somewhere inside the sealed back, and the cost of doing the repairs would about equal a new frig. One of the earlier posts got it right;

    "The refrigerator was assembled piped wired then filled with foam so all the good stuff is buried.
    They are not made to be repaired."

    That's almost exactly what the repair guy told us.

    I've read your work on all this. You got a new frig,, and then went to work on the other one. I totally applaud you for having the time the skills & such to fix it. I do not. KUDOS!!!

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