Gauging interest: .410 lee-style loader

[lathesmith]

Hello all,
There seems to be a rather high amount of interest in a run of Lee-style Loaders in .410. Apparently these have been discontinued for some time, with NO plans for another run. I have one of these from 'way back, I got it in the '70's when I was a teenager with a .410 H&R single-shot.
Looking at this tool, I believe it would be fairly easy to duplicate. Cost is another matter; IF I can get a custom reamer, and IF there is enough interest--say, 20-25 guys or so-- I believe these could be made for around $35-40 or so, depending. However, a few caveats need to be discussed to see if this idea can really be made to fly or not.
First, this price would only include 5 pieces--the body, the rammer, the de-primer, the capper, and the capper base. The material of choice would be drill rod. Finish would be very basic--maybe a quick polish after heat-treating. DIY finish by end users would really help keep the cost down here. Also, each user would be responsible for coming up with a powder and shot measure. This could be as simple as using a 45acp shell, for example, for measuring shot, or as exotic as you like. The plastic dippers are available from Lee, and can easily be adapted to this application. Cheap and effective.
Next, I need to hear from some of you shotshell loaders on how well these things would actually work. To be honest, when I saw these things fetching $100+ on feebay, I was thinking folks were buying them for nostalgia, and not for actual use. It looks like I was in error; the main interest in these seems to be as a working tool.
Anyway, after thinking about it for a while, I remember from the little use I gave this thing (over 20 years ago) that the main bug-a-boo was crimping. Apparently, these were popularized in the era of paper shells and pie crimps; when used with this type of factory shell, I believe I had good luck with it. However, nowadays the roll crimp is the in-thing, and I haven't seen a paper shotshell in years. So, how do you guys suggest the best way to crimp with one of these would be? I have seen on forums some guys swear they work fine, using roll crimps and even are suitable for loading 2 1/2" shells with the right operator. Other guys say no, these things are junk, and can never be made to work properly. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between these extremes, and my limited (though rather ancient) personal experience is a mixed bag.
So, I would really like to hear from some of you more experienced shotshell loaders on this. Paper or plastic? Pie or roll crimp? Can these tools really be useful and effective even if just a little slow? Or would they just end up being a disappointing gimmick? I guess the main thing I am trying to avoid is unrealistic expectations--I would want the guys who may get involved in this project to know exactly what they are getting.
Thanks for your input,
lathesmith

[Slowpoke]

Actually if a person was going to roll crimp their shells they wouldn't really need any other hard to find tool except for a roll crimper.

Precision Reloading has roll crimpers for $24.99

I would bet most reloaders already have everything else.

good luck

[mikenbarb]

I own one in 12 and 20 gauge and I use a Lee 6 and 8 point plastic crimp starter and it works great with finishing the final star crimp in a Lee Loader. I have also had great luck roll crimping with them and the trick is to give it a light spin while applying even pressure to the roll type crimp. If a hull already has a crimp you will not need to use a crimp starter and its the same principle as the old Herters shotgun dies for presses. You only needed a crimp starter if it was a new hull thats never been crimped before and once a crimp pattern is established it doesnt need to be again. I never used one in .410 but always wanted one so count me in because I know what to expect and that they do work good but the downfall is their slow. All you need is the Lee loader body with plunger, The correct size dippers for shot and powder and a cheap Lee crimp starter and your in. Oh, And the hull conditioner thingy.LOL.
I own numerous shotshell reloading presses but love to break out the Lee Loader when I only need to load a few and its a blast to use.

[725]

+1 with mikenbarb. And there are roll crimpers to be had via mail order.

[C A Plater]

Those things have been going for over $100 for quite a while. I'd wanted one but at that price, it made much more sense to get the MEC Jr. Still at $40 or less it would great for short runs to experiment with so I'd get one.

[krag35]

I would for sure be interested in one in the >$50.00 range. I would prefer the 2 1/2" version since that is what most all my hulls are, and I can cut down the few 3" I have.

[dromia]

I'd be interested in a 2" version.

[blysmelter]

Dont crimp, just place a pice of cardboard and some glue on top of the shot.

[jh45gun]

I would but I am semi setting up a old mec jr for what I need in 410. I figure I can deprime the shells with my Lyman Universal decap die. Seating primers is not that tough so that only means a drop tube which is cheap as is the crimp starter and the final station is no big deal either about $20 to $30 in parts for the Mec to get the job done. I have an adjustable bar so that takes care of that problem too. Be different if I did not already have some of this stuff like an extra old Mec ect. For what its worth a couple of issues ago The Back Woodsman had a 25 cent reloader made out of some scrap wood and for the crimps he glued over the shot wads as was suggested. I doubt the shells need to be sized as long as you use the same gun.

[Old Ironsights]

I've argued for this for a while. Played with the Idea with Lar45 too.

At the moment, I have 2 kits, one new style with plastic punches and one old style, so I don't need another, but last time I checked they were in high demand in Europe particularly.

FWIW I have a big bag 'o .410 star crimp starters...

Oh... and I also have Lee's Patent docs somewhere...

[turbo1889]

. . . First, this price would only include 5 pieces--the body, the rammer, the de-primer, the capper, and the capper base. . . .

At the risk of taking some of the wind out of the sails of this project I would like to ask how the indicated group buy project would be superior to just buying the kit from RMC and a roll crimp head ??? Yes, it's intended to be used to load their all brass casings but with the addition of the roll crimper it works just fine on the plastic hulls too except for not resizing the metal base of the hull which I don't think the Lee tool does either.

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page10.html

Prices starting at $35 quoted at the bottom of this page:
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page7.html

Only thing I can think of is that with the Lee design you can fold crimp but it wouldn't be too hard to make two little cap shaped dealy-bobbers one for the crimp start and one for the crimp finish to accommodate that and just add them to the RMC kit along with or as a substitute for the roll crimp head.

[jh45gun]

I would think a mec crimp starter for a couple of bucks would take care of the starting of the crimp.

[45 2.1]

FWIW I have a big bag 'o .410 star crimp starters......

Since I have a three inch set, i'm in need of a couple of those things. Any chance of getting a couple?

[725]

I hope this one gets going.

[lathesmith]

Well, it looks like some good ideas and info are coming around here...which is the prime purpose of this thread. turbo, the main thing here is to put our ideas together here and try and come up with an affordable tool that actually works, and is not just a gimmick. That stuff that RMC makes is interesting, and also helps me understand what these tools can and cannot do.
First of all, it has become clear to me that the Lee setup is not going to give a satisfactory crimp with plastic hulls, and it was made mainly for paper shells that were star-crimped and have been once-fired. Since plastic is about the only thing widely available these days, that means we need to come up with a suitable method to crimp plastic.
Which means I need more input from some of you shotgun guys: Can you use a star crimp starter that was designed for, say a MEC machine, in a satisfactory manner to crimp by hand? If so, are any other tools necessary to finish the crimp?
If one of those crimp starters is useable by hand, then the die body itself isn't anything special. This means I wouldn't need a special reamer, and cost for this thing would likely drop below $35. So, I'm thinking it may be possible to use a crimp starter like this:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=113528
And then finish the crimp with a rammer from a hand tool like the Lee. Granted, that brass crimp starter is expensive, but 1) This design should actually WORK and 2)It is usable with more than just 410 shells, in fact it is usable up to 20 gauge.
So, has anyone actually used a setup like this? If so, give us an honest appraisal of how it works (or not).
lathesmith

[Slowpoke]

Some neat .410 tools in this thread

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...er=asc&start=0

[725]

I have no experience, but others here have suggested that an overcard and a dabble of duco dement take the place of a crimp, if crimping become a techno-challenge. Of course half the fun is overcoming those types of challenges.

[woody1]

Guess I'll have to weigh in here. I was gonna stay out of this because I've posted before here and other places about my reloading for .410 shotguns and at least one poster said "just get a MEC." With the economy being sour and folks outa work, I don't want to throw cold water on any ideas regarding someone making a buck and/or getting ammo on the cheap(er) than the high price of .410's. I have a 3" Lee Loader in 410 from the '70's. Since I didn't have a 3" 410 for a long time, it was mostly useless until I modified it.

Let's back up a little here...My son and I also have loaded hundreds of 20 ga. shells with a Lee Loader. Frankly with plastic, IMO the crimp sucks on a plastic 410 prob'ly due to the size. IMO it's a little better with the 20 gauge. A crimp starter is most desirable with plastic and the 410 Lee did not come with one. The cheapie plastic crimp starter that we had for the 20 gauge worked OK for the 410 to start the folds in fired cases. These crimp starters are/were available cheap from e-gunparts a few years ago. Don't know if they are now. Easy to check. The spindex crimp starter that's available from MEC also works for fired plastic when used properly by hand. I can give you the part number if needed. The other thing I find very desirable that did come with my 410 loader but not the 20 gauge is a wad starter thingy that is merely a 1/2" aluminum tube with wad fingers in it. Makes for easy wad inserting and would be easy to make.

So what about the crimp? I've written this up before so will pass for now and prob'ly come back to it later. The Lee will "work" and as some have said, satisfactorily for them. Remember though, several manufacturers make 410 shells in diffrent lengths even though the "nominal" is the same. Remington's are shorter than Winchester's for instance. Need to allow for that in die body and wad starter construction.

So, outside of crimping, what's really needed to cheaply and simply reload 410 plastics? ............To be continued.....

Regards, Woody

[Old Ironsights]

Since I have a three inch set, i'm in need of a couple of those things. Any chance of getting a couple?

Yep.

PM.

[woody1]

These decappers all work and work well. It ain't rocket science and it doesn't need to be drill rod or highly polished anything. In fact a 16 penny nail with the point knocked off works too which is just what the item to the left in the pic is except it's inserted into a 223 shell with the primer hole reamed out. This helps in centering the punch. The center item is merely a 5/16" bolt turned down for a decapping punch. I used a drill and a bench grinder as I do not have a lathe. It also fits in a shellholder for use with a press. No. 3 is just what it looks like... a 3/8" dowell with a piece of 16 penny nail stuck in it and capped with a piece of 223 shell to protect the end.

So to use any of 'em just do it the Lee way. Center the empty shell over a hole in a block of wood, a couple of washers, short piece of pipe, whatever and give it a whack. You get the picture. Regards, Woody