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Thread: CVA 54 Cal Hawken overbore issues.

  1. #21
    Boolit Bub
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    I'm unsure of twist. My TC is 1:48 and it really shoots sabots with a 265 GR 44 pistol bullet great. I live in Alberta and we have a cast bullet maker Jet bullets (https://jetbullets.com/) he makes a soft cast bullet for the 577 snider that is 425 grains. I wonder if that would work?

  2. #22
    Boolit Bub
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    What's the possibility that this is a 58 cal barrel they stamped wrongly as a 54? A .562 round ball for a 58 cal sounds like it might be the ticket?

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Gtrubicon's Avatar
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    I’ve been thinking it was stamped wrong as I read through this thread, anything is possible.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    I am thinking that the barrel might have been rebored by someone like Bobby Hoyt.
    I have had several barrels Rebored to a larger caliber because the barrel was rusted bad when I bought them.
    I then have to Re Stamp the barrel and file off the old caliber markings.
    ( Or , just solder a oval brass plate over the old stampings ) then stamp that brass plate with the new caliber.

  5. #25
    Boolit Bub
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    We have a little local gun shop that has a pretty ok supply of muzzleloader supplies (as good as expected these days) will give them a call and see if he might have some 58 cal round balls.

  6. #26
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGS View Post
    I am thinking that the barrel might have been rebored by someone like Bobby Hoyt.
    I have had several barrels Rebored to a larger caliber because the barrel was rusted bad when I bought them.
    I then have to Re Stamp the barrel and file off the old caliber markings.
    ( Or , just solder a oval brass plate over the old stampings ) then stamp that brass plate with the new caliber.
    No chance. My dad bought this kit maybe about 45 years ago, he only shot it once with me since then and that was 25 ish years ago. He’s had it since he built it.

  7. #27
    Boolit Bub
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    Had a chat with a couple folks from Hillfolk Musket supplies and the Alberta Black powder Shooters Association. One has a CVA Mountain rifle in 58 cal (Which I have figured out this is a Mountain Rifle as it has 2 Barrel Wedge's as opposed to the Hawken which only has 1), and their rifle has a .570 bore and they shoot .562 round balls from it. This is also the info provide din the CVA sidelock Manual as shown below. I'm definitely leaning towards this being a 58 cal stamped as a 54. The year of manufacture for the 58 Cal Mountain rifle aligns with the year my dad got this kit.
    TABLE 1
    CALIBER PROJECTILE PATCH CHARGES IN GRAINS
    FIREARM DUAMETER-TYPE THICKNESS/INCHES MINIMUM MAXIMUM
    .32 RIFLE .310 ROUND BALL .015 10 FFFG 30 FFFG
    .36 RIFLE .350 ROUND BALL .015 40 FFFG 60 FFFG
    .45 RIFLE .440 ROUND BALL .015 50 FFG 80 FFG
    .50 RIFLE .490 ROUND BALL .015 50 FFG 100 FFG
    .54 RIFLE .530 ROUND BALL .015 60 FFG 120 FFG
    .58 RIFLE .562 ROUND BALL .020 60 FFG 120 FFG

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Gtrubicon's Avatar
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    Were you able to get some 58 round balls to give it a go?

  9. #29
    Boolit Bub
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    I talked to the fella from the Alberta Black Powder shooters as he bought out Hillfolk musket supplies. He lives in Edmonton and has 58 cal round balls. I'm going to get my daughter to stop over and pick some up and bring them down next time she comes home. He is going to give me a handful to try. He is pretty convinced this is a 58 Cal CVA mountain rifle with it being slugged at .570". I will dry fit some (brass rod in the barrel, no powder, just like slugging) with a couple different patch thicknesses and see what looks like its not too tight a fit and doesn't cut the patch then go try with some FFG!

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboyz View Post
    I've heard that about blue jeans, got a few pairs of old "fat pants", maybe the bigger the waist size the thicker the material! lol.
    Just slugged the barrel with a squished REAL bullet, worked really slick! Groove to Groove is .590, and land to land is .570.
    Going to try some thick patches this weekend and see what happens. If I can't find something that works I'll look at a larger ball mold. I already have a great 50 cal flinter and the TC Hawken percussion for hunting, but getting this shooting good, along with the model 94, 32-40, and the model 92, 44-40 I got when my dad passed a month ago is something I need to do.
    Thats a 58 barrel !! CVA made em (at least for the Mountain rifle) - LEE makes a 562 ball mold and also a 575 mold - the 562 a tad on the skinny side but with a pillow ticking patch should work ok? .575 will be tight for the first couple hundred but proly best bet in the long run.

    I have two 54 CVA Hawkens barrels, 87 vintage, measure .535 x 555 (rough and quick with calipers) they both shoot fine with a 530 ball and calico patch, or get a bit serious and use pillow ticking patch. They both will take a .535 ball but dont have that size mold - aint broke why fix it?

    You have yourself a serious piece of equipment - t'would be a shame to not harvest a deer or hog or two with it
    Last edited by indian joe; 06-25-2022 at 05:33 AM.

  11. #31
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Thats a 58 barrel !! CVA made em (at least for the Mountain rifle) - LEE makes a 562 ball mold and also a 575 mold - the 562 a tad on the skinny side but with a pillow ticking patch should work ok? .575 will be tight for the first couple hundred but proly best bet in the long run.

    I have two 54 CVA Hawkens barrels, 87 vintage, measure .535 x 555 (rough and quick with calipers) they both shoot fine with a 530 ball and calico patch, or get a bit serious and use pillow ticking patch. They both will take a .535 ball but dont have that size mold - aint broke why fix it?

    You have yourself a serious piece of equipment - t'would be a shame to not harvest a deer or hog or two with it
    I have some .570 round balls on their way. I agree on wanting to get a deer with it. We don't have hogs here in Alberta but I can get 2 mule Deer doe tags over on the prairie side of the province. And if I got one with this rifle and one with my dads old model 94 32-40 with a BP cartridge that would be a fantastic!

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboyz View Post
    I have some .570 round balls on their way. I agree on wanting to get a deer with it. We don't have hogs here in Alberta but I can get 2 mule Deer doe tags over on the prairie side of the province. And if I got one with this rifle and one with my dads old model 94 32-40 with a BP cartridge that would be a fantastic!
    34 years ago a two part gun mag review "The CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifle" was what propelled me into the world of muzzleloader shooting - I searched high and low and never found one! - have had ownership of Ten CVA's over the years - still shoot a CVA as my regular club gun - the locks are ordinary (but fixable) - cheap wood - but I never saw a CVA barrel that would not shoot right up there with the best.

  13. #33
    Boolit Bub
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    My dad did such a nice job building this one! I remember him putting the barrel in the oven to warm it up before he did the plumb browning. I think I was maybe 14 so that would put it at about 1979-1980 ish. This rifle really deserves to be shot and it's been sitting in the gun cabinet waiting to harvest a deer!

  14. #34
    Boolit Man
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    Many years ago I had a .58 Cal. mountain rifle and it had about the same bore dimensions as yours. It seems like it had a 1-66 twist and I shot a Lee REAL
    315 Grain bullet with 100 Grains of FFG in it. The accuracy was excellent and killed quite well. The mold has been obsolete for years but you might luck out
    and find one somewhere. Mine went with the rifle when it got traded off. I never used round balls in it to make a suggestion on and heavier bullets would not
    shoot worth spit. Good luck getting yours shooting, if it is like the one I had you will be pleased.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    You can determine the twist of that barrel easily. Use a jag with a tight fitting patch, and insert it all the way into the barrel. Mark the end of the ramrod at the muzzle, with a little tic also for the location of the front sight. Then, withdraw the ramrod slowly, until the little tic you made has rotated 90 degrees. Measure the distance from the muzzle to the original mark, and multiply by four. That’s your twist rate.
    "Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes"


    Disarming is a mistake free people only get to make once...

  16. #36
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by scattershot View Post
    You can determine the twist of that barrel easily. Use a jag with a tight fitting patch, and insert it all the way into the barrel. Mark the end of the ramrod at the muzzle, with a little tic also for the location of the front sight. Then, withdraw the ramrod slowly, until the little tic you made has rotated 90 degrees. Measure the distance from the muzzle to the original mark, and multiply by four. That’s your twist rate.
    Sounds like a good plan while I'm waiting for round balls. Next time I'm up in Edm. I'm going to visit the fella who bought out Hillfolk Musket supplies. He has a bunch of molds and shoots a lot of 58 cal himself. Maybe I'll be lucky and find some type of Minnie/Maxi/REAL or the like!

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboyz View Post
    Sounds like a good plan while I'm waiting for round balls. Next time I'm up in Edm. I'm going to visit the fella who bought out Hillfolk Musket supplies. He has a bunch of molds and shoots a lot of 58 cal himself. Maybe I'll be lucky and find some type of Minnie/Maxi/REAL or the like!
    Early CVA - 1:66 twist (unless the 58 was slower again) they were made for patched roundball - that ball will kill anything you point it at within the range you can accurately shoot it with open sights - yeah you can make it work with faux projectiles (some maybe) but a CVA barrel with patched ball is about as easy and un fussy as it gets with a muzzleloader
    If that was mine (I wish) I'd start out with a 575 ball, calico patch, 100grains of FFgoex - if we blew patches - put a backer patch (1" calico) or a card wad down on the powder - 570 ball? pillow ticking patch and more powder - smilie=w: .............................

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    joe beat me to it. As I was reading the thread I was thinking, that's a Big Bore Mountain rifle. Seems to me a ball and patch being that loose would have prompted investigation a long time ago. It ain't rocket science, it's just measurin'.
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  19. #39
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharps4590 View Post
    joe beat me to it. As I was reading the thread I was thinking, that's a Big Bore Mountain rifle. Seems to me a ball and patch being that loose would have prompted investigation a long time ago. It ain't rocket science, it's just measurin'.
    As I said earlier. THis wasn't my rifle. My dad shot it once 25 years or so ago, and it has sat in the cabinet since. He passed away a month ago and I brought it home. A barrel stamped 54, your thoughts are it's a 54, try some thick patching, and what the heck!

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboyz View Post
    As I said earlier. THis wasn't my rifle. My dad shot it once 25 years or so ago, and it has sat in the cabinet since. He passed away a month ago and I brought it home. A barrel stamped 54, your thoughts are it's a 54, try some thick patching, and what the heck!
    a sidebar --- yes I have been a fan of CVA's - however every one of them that I have had in my hands has had something wrong with it - from minor parts missing from the first kit I bought -- to -- end cap screws almost penetrating the rifling (raised a bump inside) of a fully finished Pennsylvania rifle. I had this mental picture of a little spanish quality control guy at the end of the production line - theres a conveyor belt marked USA taking boxes of number ones away and beside him is a big box that says "seconds for Australia??" ........so a misbranded barrel would be no surprise to me .......most of the CVA's downunder came from one particular supplier and almost all of them I have seen are 87 vintage, all of which kind of points to a bulk purchase of suspect quality stuff --------thing about it is (after a bit of tinkering) every one of those things shot like a house on fire - they were easy and adaptable to load - whoever figured this out at the start picked the perfect rifling dimensions for a round ball barrel .........sadly they went off making inlines

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check