Bullet choice for LCR 327 fed

[pettypace]

I like the marketing of this round if it actually delivers:
https://www.federalpremium.com/handg...D327HS1+H.html

I would like to try "duplicating" the 'concept' using cast bullets.

I think what Whiterabbit hopes to duplicate with cast bullets is adequate performance with acceptable recoil.

The problem is that the terms adequate and acceptable are subjective and performance (I don't dare say "stopping power") and even recoil are ill-defined. A couple examples might bring these terms into better focus.

There's some consensus that a commercial "target" wadcutter load in a .38 Special snubby provides adequate performance and acceptable recoil. (See, for example, this discussion.) Performance data for a target WC from a .38 Special snubby looks something like this:



Penetration (16") and Defense Wound Mass (25 grams) quantify bullet performance and Power Factor (96) gives some sense of recoil.

For perspective, here's the FBI load from a .38 Special snubby (assuming expansion as intended):



From a snubby and against against a 4LD barrier, the FBI load is not likely to expand to 0.59". But a smaller diameter but deeper wound cavity would not much change the predicted 33 grams of wound mass. And given the FBI load's reputation for reliability, 33 grams is most certainly "adequate."

But what about recoil? How does a power factor of 96 for the target wadcutter compare to the power factor of 127 for the FBI load? At a minimum, 127/96 = 1.32. In other words, the FBI load would have about 32% more recoil than the a target WC fired from the same gun. But according to Hatcher, the Power Factor should probably be squared to get recoil energy. So, a more accurate comparison might be (127 x 127) / (96 x 96) = 1.75.

So, how do the .327 Federal loads suggested compare to the two "classic" .38 Special snubby?

SOS's "riveted" 327 WC might look something like this (assuming expanded diameter of 0.48" and penetration like a WC):



Penetration is adequate, wound mass is in the same league as the FBI load from a snubby, but over twice the recoil (151 x 151) / (96 x 96) = 2.47) of a .38 target WC. Fierce! But not the low recoil concept Whiterabbit was looking for.

My guess is that SOS's riveted WC gives much better performance than indicated above. In that case, maybe a 117 grain cast HP at, say, 1000 f/s might come much closer to the low recoil concept Whiterabbit is after.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm sure his 117gr wadcutter does better than that. For example, Lucky Gunner's closest test was the 100gr Speer Gold dot from the LCR. It left at 1266 fps, expanded to .51", and penetrated 16.1". It was the best performing cartridge and load of the test, even out doing the 357 magnum 135gr Gold dot.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Pettypace, nice work. Thanks for the analysis and comparisons.

I’ll be the first vouch that my mean 117’s are very boisterous! But the LCR has a shape that fits my hands well and that keeps it shootable for me….for now….until sometime in the future when I need to tone it down a bit.

That’s a great thing about casting and loading. You get to taylor your loads to your wants/needs. Need less recoil? You can do that.

[Green Frog]

I missed the part about full potential without as much recoil and noise! That’s like saying you want to get into orbit without all that muss and fuss of a launch! You can back of on bullet weight to reduce recoil, and slow down the MV to reduce noise, but where’s the fun in that? If I want “pleasant” I shoot 32 S&W Long, even in my custom made S&W K327. To fulfill potential of the chambering, I accept recoil and noise as a given. I can get to a happy medium with lighter (95-105 gr) bullets and milder powder charges, usually W231. If I go full blown magnum, it’s 118-125 gr bullets over a healthy charge of Accurate #7 or #9.

[pettypace]

I like the marketing of this round if it actually delivers:
https://www.federalpremium.com/handg...D327HS1+H.html

Note that in "marketing" this "Premium Personal Defense" round, Federal completely fails to mention the two "critical wounding components for handgun ammunition," namely depth of penetration and permanent cavity volume (or effective wound mass). (See "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness") Maybe it just slipped their collective minds. Or is it possible they at Federal honestly believe bullet drop at 100 yards is more important for your average civilian self defense scenario?

But Brassfetcher tested that exact same load against both bare 10% ballistic gelatin and fully-clothed gelatin.

In the bare gel test, Brassfetcher got 12.3" of penetration and an expanded diameter of 0.45". The corresponding effective wound mass (using MacPherson's calculations) wouldn't be much over 20 grams.

Against heavily clothed gelatin, Brassfetcher measured 14.9" of penetration with an expanded diameter of 0.42". MacPherson's calculation for effective wound mass here gives about 23 grams or about the same as a target wadcutter from a .38 snubby.

[Whiterabbit]

Gun on the way! Ditto all of my reloading stuff. Minus brass, it's hard to find

I wrote a sob post being too waffly. I re-read all the great advice here and need to just man-up and buy a first mold.

Give me your opinion, I have it down to two very different choices:

84 grain plain base HP. Cast with a mix of hardball and soft lead (50/50, 25/75, whatever it takes to mimic roughly 50/50 COWW and soft lead or a little softer). Goal to reach 1150-1200-ish in the LCR.



Accurate 31-117E. Same alloy. Can't quite predict the appropriate speed in an LCR, should be 900-1100 range? I can't quite predict what is well over H&R capability but around starting for 327. I think that's around 900 fps?



Which one would YOU guys start with? and if you were sitting on a big pile of hardball and range lead, how would you choose to mix it? 50/50, favoring a little more range scrap? Part of me wants the 84 because I've never had an HP mold before. But another part of me feels that the 117 is the better buy.

[megasupermagnum]

Well, I've already stated my distain for light bullets in this caliber. Based on what Shooting on a shoestring posted, that Accurate 31-117E should be a good one. I think you are doing yourself a disservice by ignoring some of the other NOE options like the 314-121-WFN, it's only around 111 grains with a hollow point, not heavy at all, but you are getting a nice long nose on it for powder space. That 80 grain mold looks useless to me.

You will have no issues reaching those stated velocities, those are basically starting loads. As for alloy, if all you have are those two, just run straight range scrap, and air cooled. You do not want it any harder than that.

[Whiterabbit]

looked at that bullet, but the mold is sold out!

[megasupermagnum]

looked at that bullet, but the mold is sold out!

You have to call there. They make molds per request. If you ask for it, it's usually in stock in a few weeks.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I’ll put in a vote for Accurate 31-117E bc that’s a mold I designed for my maximum effort 327s and 32-20s.

The E is for my last name.
Tom tags the new designs with the people’s last initial.
But don’t think all the E’s are mine.
There’s lots of other people with E initials.

I will say that in my LCR 31-117E it shoots a bit higher than I prefer. To compensate I use a 6 o’clock hold. Actually for defensive shooting that’s the preferred sight picture so you can see more of what’s going on. For head shooting squirrels, not such a good thing.

[Whiterabbit]

Well, the 117E arrived, day before I go on vacation . Super fast shipping tho! I am impressed. I ordered that mold just a couple weeks ago. Its a nice quality mold too.

I also dinked around with some 100gr DEWC to tide me over, and I need to re-think my strategy. The recoil was, uh, not really recoil, loaded with 6.4 gr longshot (a little over 90% of max).

I guess shooting ruger-only 45 colts with 300 gr boolits will reset recoil expectations! . Anyways, this was NBD, so I will try to put the spurs to these 117’s when I get a chance to cast some up. Maybe not full snort H110, but maybe 95% there would make a mighty fine and still kinda softish load.

[cwlongshot]

I found those Ruger only MP bullets wuite mild when ya do some expansion tests and see that huge HP dosnet need screaming velocities! I shoot mine 1000 ish and get great expansion and excellent penetration! Recoil is quite mild too! Unique has been my powder of choice.

Good luck with that mold its a good one!

CW