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Thread: Long range hunter breaks down anti long range Hunter

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Many good perspectives. I saw some stuff posted here about the "real gunsmith" many months ago and did not bother opening the links in the first post....I am not impressed with the guy.

    But I do enjoy seeing what others on the forum think.

    As to hunting vs shooting, I see it this way. You can shoot a critter without doing much hunting, but you cannot hunt a critter without shooting. Most people will not develop the skills or put in the time and effort to "hunt" like an Indian. Many "hunters" I know bait deer/bear or run dogs on bears and smaller critters. BTW running dogs is not for everyone and it is not as "effortless" as some people think. I live in an area of Michigan hillbillies, and I have met some great hunters but not one good shooter. A good hunter does not need much shooting skill, a precision rifle, or finely tuned handloads.

    Anyway, for me, I have established an ethical range that matches my shooting ability and the caliber. I used to be a decent rifle shot, but physical issues have reduced my ability to hold well enough to take an off-hand shot at more than 100 yards on a deer. Out of a blind or in a prone position, 400 yards (with little wind) is my limit with the .308.

    IMO many people taking long shots are not capable of doing it ethically. There was a guy who posted about downing a deer at 265 yards with a .45LC. That was not an ethical shot with the equipment he used, but it would not be a "long shot" with a .308.

    The long range mentality is easy to buy into especially for shooters. How many sit at the loading and shooting bench for hours developing a MOA or better load, then more hours over a chronograph chasing a low SD combination of the bullet and powder the barrel "likes". And then add in a couple of "ladder tests" because that is what the precision rifle guys are doing. Never mind the meticulous case prep needed to get there...wherever "there" is. Just a waste of time and resources if you are not going to shoot a deer past 400 yards, or coyotes past 300 yards, etc etc. IMO it is akin to guys who reload pistol ammunition on a single stage press and weigh their charges...in the words of our ex Sec of State, "What difference does it make?"

    All that effort generates a NEED to make the long shot to brag about it, and to "prove" it was all worthwhile and "necessary". Long range shooting is rarely a necessity, but it boosts the ego so people do it. Have you ever read about the shortest sniper kill in history?.....I think not.
    Don Verna


  2. #22
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    Shooting at targets at long range is interesting and fun. Once you know all the things that can happen while the bullet is in the air, hunting living animals, that can MOVE becomes a different matter. Another factor, previously mentioned, was what most folks think long range is. Hearing someone comment about an extreme long range shot on a 200 yard shot over broken ground reveals the true lack of knowledge of many shooters. I do shoot at prairie rats, whatever the range, and will take 'chancy' shots at fawn killing coyotes. Again, previously mentioned, finding animals in timber and open sage can be hard, even when range is short. An elk shot dead at 60 yards, may run a couple hundred yards before falling with little opportunity for follow-up shots, antelope just drop in the sage at 100 yards and take an hour to find just walking back and forth passing by 20 feet away, shooting long range means real problems finding your game, EVEN IF you made a good shot with enough gun. Hunting from stands in controlled environments, open farmland, food plots is very different than National Forest or BLM sagebrush where the wind always blows, in several directions at the same time and the game travels miles every day.
    Last edited by MostlyLeverGuns; 06-22-2022 at 11:37 AM.

  3. #23
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    Long range target work is something I have always admired. The skill and precision required takes a lot of hard work. But, overlay that same cold calculation in the taking of game, not named Osama Bin Ladin, turns me off.
    “You should tell someone what you know. There should be a history, so that men can learn from it.

    He smiled. “Men do not learn from history. Each generation believes itself brighter than the last, each believes it can survive the mistakes of the older ones. Each discovers each old thing and they throw up their hands and say ‘See! Look what I have found! Look upon what I know!’ And each believes it is something new.

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    ………… IMO it is akin to guys who reload pistol ammunition on a single stage press and weigh their charges...in the words of our ex Sec of State, "What difference does it make?"

    All that effort generates a NEED to make the long shot to brag about it, and to "prove" it was all worthwhile and "necessary". Long range shooting is rarely a necessity, but it boosts the ego so people do it. Have you ever read about the shortest sniper kill in history?.....I think not.
    Good post Don and I agree. I live a few miles north of you I think and I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve heard “YESSIR I shot that buck with a 25-06 on a dead run at 750 yards with the wind howling (or take your pick here…) and dropped it right in its tracks…)” uh-huh. Northern Michigan, in the woods, even as a young man walking miles and miles through the woods have I ever seen a decent shot on a deer that was over *maybe* 150 yards.

    As far as blind hunting, I have 80 acres to hunt on with more and more people encroaching every year. The only way we can get Venison is to sit in the heated blind and wait — and that wait has been days at times with idiots chasing the deer all over the county…

    As far as long range hunting goes, our local club has a gong at 500 yards and I just love shooting 4-500 grain bullets at that thing and listening to the hit. If someone really wants a thrill, try doing that with vernier sights on a 45-70 or 90, being in your mid 60’s and having hunted with a scope for most of your life. Maybe I’m strange but hearing that “bang” on the steel excites the heck out of me —- but that ain’t hunting….to each his own!

    Art
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  5. #25
    Boolit Master Wolfdog91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundguy View Post
    From these couple posts.. can we assume that you are 'anti close range hunting" ?
    Lol excuse ? I'll just take that as sarcasm lol. No if you can drop a critter with one shot and know your limits I'm fine with it . Shooting deer point blank in the deep woods takes a skill set just like long range imo.
    A wise man will try to learn as much from a fool as he will from a master, for all have something to teach- Uncle Iroh
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
    Don't be surprised and complain when others see it through different eyes. Just because someone can do something and it turns out as expected doesn't automatically mean it was a wise choice.

    I've found dead game animals on multiple occasions that were obviously poorly shot. Worst one I remember was a dead deer lying in a creek with the front of it's head shot off. Apparently it died trying to get a drink that had become an impossible task because someone tried something they shouldn't have. Gruesome doesn't begin to cover it.

    If you aren't open to other opinions then I'd suggest not asking for them.
    Well I'm not sure where this is going from but did you think I posted this on this forum and expect everyone to be on board? I would honestly be suprised if I didn't get the type responses I'm getting front this crowd. And before that's taken out of context ,no I'm not saying that's bad, or people can have their own thoughts or peoel arnt experience or that in some master wizbang hunter or something it's the comments are just predictable. Like seriously why do you think I posted this ? Trust me if I wanted pats on the back or everyone to just agree I would have just gone to a different site.
    Honestly I thought it was a good break down , felt the guy had alot of experience and maybe someone would possibly enjoy it. It's really that simple.
    And further more where have I shown I'm not open to others opinions? It's not like I've told anyone their wrong or anything.
    A wise man will try to learn as much from a fool as he will from a master, for all have something to teach- Uncle Iroh
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  7. #27
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    Thanks for posting it. I rarely spend time watching videos but this forum is a place to share them. If it's shooting related and can help someone increase performance it's all good.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdog91 View Post
    ……And further more where have I shown I'm not open to others opinions? .
    Hey Wolfie I thought they were good vids dude, everyone’s got an opinion on everything I guess…don’t know where the sarcasm comes from, keep posting!

    Art
    ”Only accurate rifles are interesting”
    ——Townsend Whelen


    In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act
    —- George Orwell

  9. #29
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    I personally wouldn't take a shot at a game animal at a range that I don't feel confident at. But.... I wouldn't hesitate for a second to take long shots at sage rats. Varminting for ground squirrels, ground hogs, badgers and prairie dogs is just pest control. If you want to try long shots on critters, the best ones to do it with are the ones that cause crop damage, and are livestock pests.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 405grain View Post
    I personally wouldn't take a shot at a game animal at a range that I don't feel confident at. But.... I wouldn't hesitate for a second to take long shots at sage rats. Varminting for ground squirrels, ground hogs, badgers and prairie dogs is just pest control. If you want to try long shots on critters, the best ones to do it with are the ones that cause crop damage, and are livestock pests.
    Exactly. With small pest like that, using varmint bullets, it is normally a clean miss or a hit that is instant death or a quick death. It bothers me when a deer hit in the boiler room goes 100 yards, but it happens. I have found deer that died a slow death because some yahoo wounded them.
    Don Verna


  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbcocker View Post
    I am impressed by long range marksmanship. But to me shooting and hunting are different. If you want to impress me as a shooter tell me how far you were. If you want to impress me as a hunter, tell me how close you got.
    i like this one too!!!!!

    i have shot one doe at 365+/- yards and one buck at 12 feet. the doe made me feel like taking a shower to get the "dirt" off of me. the buck made me feel like i was a hunter. most of the deer i killed were around 20 - 40 yards away. 10 or so years ago, i went to cast boolits. jacketed bullets just weren't for me anymore.

    using cast, i shoot deer at 150 yards or less. if the deer comes out and its range is 175 yards, then i say "oh well" and let it go. i'm disabled now and i sit in my blind and drink coffee. if a deer shows up, it has to be a bigger deer (body wise). if a yearling or a 2 year old deer shows up, then "oh well" and let it go. i miss deer hunting like i used to. i would go out into the woods and stalk deer. dang stroke!!! now i climb into my side by side, go about a mile into the woods, park the utv, hobble about 60 yards and sit down on a stool in my blind and drink coffee.

  12. #32
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    I would think that the smell of coffee would alert a mindful old buck?

  13. #33
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    In years past I've had them walk within 50 yards while I was smoking a cigarette, drinking coffee and had pissed around the base of the tree I was sitting in. So pretty much doing everything wrong.

    Movement and hunting pressure seemed to be the biggest factors as while I had these encounters in early fall small game hunting the same never happened during deer season. Probably should have taken up muzzleloaders years ago, but I was young and impatient. Now I'm old and grumpy.

    So it goes.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Many good perspectives. I saw some stuff posted here about the "real gunsmith" many months ago and did not bother opening the links in the first post....I am not impressed with the guy.

    But I do enjoy seeing what others on the forum think.

    As to hunting vs shooting, I see it this way. You can shoot a critter without doing much hunting, but you cannot hunt a critter without shooting. Most people will not develop the skills or put in the time and effort to "hunt" like an Indian. Many "hunters" I know bait deer/bear or run dogs on bears and smaller critters. BTW running dogs is not for everyone and it is not as "effortless" as some people think. I live in an area of Michigan hillbillies, and I have met some great hunters but not one good shooter. A good hunter does not need much shooting skill, a precision rifle, or finely tuned handloads.

    Anyway, for me, I have established an ethical range that matches my shooting ability and the caliber. I used to be a decent rifle shot, but physical issues have reduced my ability to hold well enough to take an off-hand shot at more than 100 yards on a deer. Out of a blind or in a prone position, 400 yards (with little wind) is my limit with the .308.

    IMO many people taking long shots are not capable of doing it ethically. There was a guy who posted about downing a deer at 265 yards with a .45LC. That was not an ethical shot with the equipment he used, but it would not be a "long shot" with a .308.

    The long range mentality is easy to buy into especially for shooters. How many sit at the loading and shooting bench for hours developing a MOA or better load, then more hours over a chronograph chasing a low SD combination of the bullet and powder the barrel "likes". And then add in a couple of "ladder tests" because that is what the precision rifle guys are doing. Never mind the meticulous case prep needed to get there...wherever "there" is. Just a waste of time and resources if you are not going to shoot a deer past 400 yards, or coyotes past 300 yards, etc etc. IMO it is akin to guys who reload pistol ammunition on a single stage press and weigh their charges...in the words of our ex Sec of State, "What difference does it make?"

    All that effort generates a NEED to make the long shot to brag about it, and to "prove" it was all worthwhile and "necessary". Long range shooting is rarely a necessity, but it boosts the ego so people do it. Have you ever read about the shortest sniper kill in history?.....I think not.
    All the youngsters think they are "snipers". A friend of mine was a sniper on the Mekong Delta, under David Hackworth, and was written about in his book, "Steel the Soldiers Heart". He said he never took a shot, or made a kill over 350 yards. His kills were up around Carlos Hathcock's numbers.
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  15. #35
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    I do a lot of long range shooting, for fun, in matches, varmint shooting and in military SOTIC use. I also have taken several deer and elk at "long range". Long range is a relative term as previously mentioned. For hunting, I establish a "maximum range" under the best field conditions of wind, weather, position and impact velocity with my own hunting rifles. That range is established by quite a bit of actual shooting from field positions at those ranges. It is not determined by ballistic charts or programs. Albeit, I do use a ballistic program to determine the maximum range where sufficient velocity is retained for some bullet expansion. With that knowledge of my own ability I can take a long range shot within my own set "maximum range" if no other possibility of getting closer is available. I also use 24 or 26'" barreled accurate rifles (usually a 30-06 with 180 or 190 gr Hornady SPBTs) that have repeatable adjustable elevations. A laser range finder is also used for longer shots.

    With such, hunting in NE Oregon high canyon country I have shot one deer at 600 yards but most have been much closer with most under 200 yards. Even then, most of them never knew I was there including many shot well under 100 yards. In NE Oregon I have shot elk from 25 to 478 yards. During general season, usually just 10 - 14 days long and the first week end is very crowded, on public land there is no "stalking" as such because hunters can be everywhere. Also a good pair of running shoes is needed because if you do put a deer or elk down it can be a race to it to tag it before another "hunter" does.....seriously.

    There are many different ways and methods of "hunting". Having enforced game laws and worked ranges during "sighting in days" along with observing the actions of "hunters" during hunting I have seen far more animals injured/wounded by nimrods just blazing away at the animal or worse, even a herd of animals. Many such nimrods are "over gunned/over scoped" with super magnum cartridges. A few of them talk about a "long shot" but very few actually even try it. Those that I have encountered in the fields actually trying such a long shot are most often well prepared both with ability and equipment.
    Couses deer hunting here in Arizona is a good example. Some years back when I drew a once in a lifetime Rocky Mountain Bighorn sheep tag for a unit in the Eagle cap Wilderness Area in NE Oregon I was prepared with my '06 for a long range "across the canyon" shot we all read about. Fact is, when the shot on a beatiful full curl ram presented itself it was, indeed, "across a canyon". It was straight across and high above Billy Jones Lake actually. However, the range was "only" 246 yards. I set the scope elevation at 250 (an older Redfield AccuTrac 9x9) and aimed a spot where the bullet would go through the ram's heart. The bullet hit 1" right of the small spot and the Ram died right there. Could I have gotten closer? No way and if I tried I probably would not have filled that once in a life tag.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I do not intentionally go out to "snipe" at big game and I do not criticize those that are prepared to do it. However, where I hunt (or used to anyway) I am prepared to shoot out to what I have determined is my own "maximum range" for the animal hunted.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSB View Post
    Do the math on a long shot. I’m not impressed with someone who can hit a stationary target at long distances….I can do that myself. An animal takes one small step and by the time the bullet gets there it’s a miss or a very bad hit. Shooting like that becomes unethical. A game animal deserves better than that. Sorry, but I don’t consider this “hunting”.
    Regarding "by the time the bullet gets there it’s a miss or a very bad hit."

    Bullet time of flight Muzzle to Animal.

    30-30 at 150 yards 220 milliseconds

    30-06 at 300 yards 354 milliseconds

    25-06 at 500 yards 588 milliseconds

    The difference is a small fraction of a second

    average human reaction time may fall between 200-250ms

    A slow walk is 3 feet per second. If the animal is moving and you don't lead it even at 150 yards with 30-30 your bullet will miss your point of aim by a number of inches.

    Longer the range the more potential for error. Time of flight is just one factor and not the most problematic.

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  17. #37
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Regarding "by the time the bullet gets there it’s a miss or a very bad hit."

    Bullet time of flight Muzzle to Animal.

    30-30 at 150 yards 220 milliseconds

    30-06 at 300 yards 354 milliseconds

    25-06 at 500 yards 588 milliseconds

    The difference is a small fraction of a second

    average human reaction time may fall between 200-250ms

    A slow walk is 3 feet per second. If the animal is moving and you don't lead it even at 150 yards with 30-30 your bullet will miss your point of aim by a number of inches.

    Longer the range the more potential for error. Time of flight is just one factor and not the most problematic.

    Tim
    This is arguing over semantics. To make an accurate shot at distance requires time. Add in wind, light conditions and a target that is not necessarily going to remain stationary and the difficulty increases exponentially. If it were easy everyone could do it with minimal effort.

    It's not easy and more people who can't try anyway than people who can and decided not to. That's the point.

  18. #38
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    I’ve been big game hunting for sixty-one years and I’ve shot and killed over two-hundred deer in that time. I can’t even begin to tell you how many dead deer I’ve found that were hit poorly. Many hunters aren’t the best of shots to begin with. Many will shoot at anything they can see and have no idea where to hold. Add some Adrenalin on top of that and those “snipers” wound a lot of game. I don’t encourage “long range” hunting shots. Some can, most can’t.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Regarding "by the time the bullet gets there it’s a miss or a very bad hit."

    Bullet time of flight Muzzle to Animal.

    30-30 at 150 yards 220 milliseconds

    30-06 at 300 yards 354 milliseconds

    25-06 at 500 yards 588 milliseconds

    The difference is a small fraction of a second

    average human reaction time may fall between 200-250ms

    A slow walk is 3 feet per second. If the animal is moving and you don't lead it even at 150 yards with 30-30 your bullet will miss your point of aim by a number of inches.

    Longer the range the more potential for error. Time of flight is just one factor and not the most problematic.

    Tim
    Time of flight calculations need to account for the bullet deceleration. There are some very good ballistic calculations available.

    The following is a 1000 yard 30-06 ballistic charting of a Remington 30-06 Springfield 165 Grain AccuTip Boat Tail with a BC (Ballistic Coefficient) of .447. At a 1,000 yards time of flight is 1.67 seconds. Wind drift will be around 97 inches with a 10 mph full value wind speed. Time of flight verse animal movement is a very real issue at distance. A fast walk for a human is 6 to 8 mph. Ten feet per second is 6.818 mph. With the 30/06 load above a 1/2 second time of flight gets you to 400 yard. A human doing a fast walk will have moved 5 feet between when the bullet leaves the bore and impacts.

    http://gundata.org/blog/post/30-06-ballistics-chart/

    Range (yards) Drop (inches) Velocity Energy Time (seconds)
    0 -1.4936 2800 2872 0.00
    50 -0.1498 2697 2664 0.05
    100 -0.0014 2597 2471 0.11
    150 -1.1424 2499 2288 0.17
    200 -3.6756 2403 2115 0.23
    250 -7.7145 2310 1955 0.30
    300 -13.3837 2218 1802 0.36
    350 -20.8209 2128 1659 0.43
    400 -30.1783 2041 1526 0.50
    450 -41.6244 1955 1400 0.58
    500 -55.3455 1872 1284 0.66
    550 -71.5482 1791 1175 0.74
    600 -90.4615 1713 1075 0.82
    650 -112.3382 1638 983 0.91
    700 -137.4574 1565 897 1.01
    750 -166.1264 1496 820 1.11
    800 -198.6823 1429 748 1.21
    850 -235.4931 1367 685 1.32
    900 -276.9573 1308 627 1.43
    950 -323.5005 1254 576 1.54
    1000 -375.5708 1204 531 1.67

    The following is a ballistics chart in table format that details the bullet trajectory of a 30-30 Winchester 150 grain HP X30301 and a ballistic coefficient of .218. The 30-30 Winchester 150 gr. Super-X Hollow Point has stated muzzle velocity of 2390 fps. Time of flight at 150 yards is 0.21 seconds. Three mph equal 4.4 fps or 52.8 inches per second. That equals 11.08 inches of target movement. That equals a gut shot (if the no lead point of aim was center lungs) if you don't lead for the 3 mph target movement. Yes it a matter of inches. 11.08 inches to be specific with a 30/30 at 150 yards with 150 grain bullets. With 170's it will be more.

    http://gundata.org/blog/post/30-30-ballistics-chart/

    Range (yards) Drop (inches) Velocity Energy Time (seconds)
    0 -1.4918 2389 1901 0.00
    50 0.1579 2200 1612 0.07
    100 0.0066 2019 1357 0.14
    150 -2.2832 1847 1136 0.21
    200 -7.1273 1686 947 0.30
    250 -15.0375 1537 787 0.39
    300 -26.6388 1400 653 0.50
    350 -42.6823 1280 546 0.61
    400 -64.0386 1178 462 0.73
    450 -91.6529 1098 401 0.86
    500 -126.4703 1036 357 1.00
    550 -169.3828 986 324 1.15
    600 -221.2253 945 297 1.31
    650 -283.0148 909 275 1.47
    700 -355.1177 877 256 1.64
    750 -438.4924 848 239 1.81
    800 -534.2516 822 225 1.99
    850 -642.5465 797 212 2.18
    900 -764.9061 773 199 2.37
    950 -901.8221 751 188 2.57
    1000 -1,054.1505 730 177 2.77

    This was a bow kill a while back. It scored 126 so it just made book. One of my coworkers was losing several deer a season. He didn't have a clue as to actual deer sizes.

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    Last edited by M-Tecs; 06-23-2022 at 10:46 PM.
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  20. #40
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    " I've killed antelope with revolvers and smooth bore flintlocks. Close is hunting, and if you want to impress me, tell me how close you got."

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check