9 MM HB Cast Bullets ?

[Johnch]

OK this is me looking for information
This is NOT me looking for bragging rights for the smallest groups
But what I want is to HELP ( at least a little) my scores in some informal shoots

I was given some Berry's 115 gr hollow base 9 MM bullets
I loaded them for plinking and found them OK out of my Glock 17
Not sure what primers I used , HP 38 and random brass
But I just punched holes in pop cans

But what I am interested in , I am starting to try to get the best groups out of my Browning HP I can
So I am just starting to test different molds , alloys and powders

So far the loads I have tested 3 ways Off Hand , Off Sand Bags and using a Ransom Rest
From now on I will just use the Ransom Rest as that way I will not be a influence to the group size
But I have found 1 load so far that has produced some great groups at 50 yards

But I got to wondering
Bullseye shooters used to use HB Wadcutters and some still do

Would a well cast HB Round Nose 9 MM bullet shoot well ?
So I got to thinking I could make a nose pour HB bullet mold that has a small flat area for the sprue plate cut
Maybe a 115 gr cast bullet that is the size of a 124 gr cast bullet or a 124 gr cast bullet the size of a 147 gr cast bullet

Your thoughts ?
Or is this idea a dead end ?

Thanks
John

[dverna]

I tested swaged HBWC vs cast H&G 50 WC's in the .38 years ago by firing 50 shot groups at 50 yards using a Ransom Rest. The swaged HBWC shrank groups by about 1/2" IIRC. The gun was a M52 with a custom 1-10 barrel.

I do not know if the better accuracy was due to the HBWC design or swage vs cast. Swaged bullets should be more consistent than cast.

But assume that the improved accuracy was due to the HB design. Is it worth it? You will likely make a single cavity mold unless you have the equipment and skills to produce a multicavity mold. With a single cavity mold you will cast 100/hr to get a 1/2" improvement in accuracy at 50 yards.

9mm operates at a higher pressure so "blowing" out the skirt needs some thought. HBWC commercial bullets are soft and have thin skirts to run at lower pressures.

[Pirate69]

OK this is me looking for information
This is NOT me looking for bragging rights for the smallest groups
But what I want is to HELP ( at least a little) my scores in some informal shoots

I was given some Berry's 115 gr hollow base 9 MM bullets
I loaded them for plinking and found them OK out of my Glock 17
Not sure what primers I used , HP 38 and random brass
But I just punched holes in pop cans

But what I am interested in , I am starting to try to get the best groups out of my Browning HP I can
So I am just starting to test different molds , alloys and powders

So far the loads I have tested 3 ways Off Hand , Off Sand Bags and using a Ransom Rest
From now on I will just use the Ransom Rest as that way I will not be a influence to the group size
But I have found 1 load so far that has produced some great groups at 50 yards

But I got to wondering
Bullseye shooters used to use HB Wadcutters and some still do

Would a well cast HB Round Nose 9 MM bullet shoot well ?
So I got to thinking I could make a nose pour HB bullet mold that has a small flat area for the sprue plate cut
Maybe a 115 gr cast bullet that is the size of a 124 gr cast bullet or a 124 gr cast bullet the size of a 147 gr cast bullet

Your thoughts ?
Or is this idea a dead end ?

Thanks
John

Hi John. Can you share the size of the groups you are getting at 50 yards?

[deltaenterprizes]

In my experience with 9mm cast bullets in European and other foreign manufactured barrels I learned that they have a faster twist than American manufacturers.
The information came from Irv Stone of BarSto barrels, a custom pistol barrel manufacturer.
The foreign barrels have a twist rate of 1:9 and American are the same as 38/357 with a twist rate of 1:16.
The rifling is shallow, designed for jacketed bullets.
I found that 147gr boolits had the most surface area to grip the rifling and they were not pushed as hard to make them strip the rifling.
My best selling 9mm boolits were the SAECO 147gr RN for match shooters.

I would try the 147s first and if you still want to try the hollow based version I would make a 125gr with the 147 profile.
Your other option is a custom barrel made to shoot lead boolits.
With all of the current clones of the Hi Power I would think that some manufacturer is producing or will be producing a match barrel for them.

Proceed with caution with a large hollow base because as noted above they are designed to grip the rifling at low pressure and the 9mm requires produces 30,000 or more levels to work the action.
Light loads can be made to function by reducing recoil spring strength.

[Johnch]

Hi John. Can you share the size of the groups you are getting at 50 yards?

So far I tested 6 loads with my Browning High Power in the Ransom Rest
At 50 yards , 10 shot groups
I have gotten groups of
Just over 6"
4 5/8"
4"
4"
3 1/2"
2 3/4"
The 2 3/4" group load was 140 gr ( listed as 147 gr ) Lyman ‎356637 , casts .358
Accurate Arms #7 5.6 gr
CCI small pistol primers
Winchester cases
Cast out of a Range lead that is slightly harder than Wheel Weights

I bought this mold used off of E Bay
After I got the mold I saw someone had recut the nose on 1 of the cavities before I bought it

John

[Johnch]

Also I did shoot about 15 different loads
But those groups were shot off hand at 50 yards
I didn't shoot these loads from the Ransom Rest so I can't give good group sizes
BUT I can tell you non of the 15 loads had less than 12" groups at 50 yards

John

[NuJudge]

I have a Browning High Power that has groove diameter of about .3575", and if I load a bullet of lesser diameter, I get a lot of Leading. If I load a .358" bullet, the cartridge is too fat to chamber.

I have a S&W 25-2 revolver in .45 acp that has cylinder throats that are .456". If I load .452" Lead or jacketed flat based bullets, I get poor accuracy. I have just acquired a .456" flat based mold, but I have not cast any yet. I acquired some swaged hollow based .452" 185 grain bullets, and suddenly the accuracy in the revolver is excellent. That particular swager makes a hollow based swaged round nose .38 bullet, and if you talked to them they might be able to supply them in .356" diameter:
https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/bulletselection.

[wv109323]

My experience is with a CZ 75B with a 1:10 twist. The bottom line is that when velocities goes over 1000 FPS the accuracy went downhill. My bore is .3563. Even jacketed bullets had poor accuracy at 1000 plus velocities.
I tried probably 20-25 bullet configurations of bullet sizes, weights, lubed and PC. I used at least 8 different powders. Nothing helped when velocity was cranked up over 1000 fps.
My most accurate powders were AA No. 7, Titegroup and Blue Dot around 850 fps.
The HBWC was mostly used in the .38 Special at low velocities. The pet load was 2.8 g of Bullseye. Much over that and the skirt was blown off the HB.
I would expect you would run into the same problem with the 9mm.
I

[Green Frog]

While this has not been a problem for me yet, I’ll just mention that with 38 Spl HBWCs driven too fast and hard, the possibility of “blown skirts” exists, leaving a possibility of a partial obstruction in the bore to bulge your barrel on the next shot. I’ve shot thousands of mid range 38 Spls with HBWCs through my old PPC without such problems. Also I’ve put pmore HB Minie Balls through my musket than I can count, but that’s with black powder with different burn rates and pressure curves than smokeless. If I were trying to load and shoot HBs in a relatively high pressure/high velocity pistol round I would approach the higher end very carefully.

This is not meant to throw cold water on your project, rather it’s meant to suggest the lines you should be aware of for your safety and that of your pistol. I would strongly encourage you to let us know here how this works out for you… if you are going for a highly accurate target round, it should be promising. If OTOH you are looking for a high performance, high speed round, the hollow base may set an upper limit for you.

Regards,
Froggie

[Bigslug]

Given the cast bullet challenges commonly encountered that are related SPECIFICALLY to the 9mm, I would at least make a study of ensuring that you have correct sizing to your bore, and that your brass isn't sizing your bullets down below optimal diameter on seating.

It COULD be that a hollow base is correcting a deficiency in the above by kicking your base diameter back up to where it should be.

My solution to those problems was a .38 S&W sizing die to get a little more flare on the cases combined with a WW+2% tin alloy of about 13BHN. .357" seems to be working for me as a sized diameter based on .346"/.356" being the bore/groove diameters of five different guns.

If I WAS going to pursue the hollow-base concept for 9mm, I would first do so with a fairly shallow cavity to preserve the rigidity of the base against deformation by the pressure wave that's going to hit it in the backside the instant it is unsupported by the muzzle on exit. I would also stick with something like my above alloy, possibly up to the 5% tin and 15BHN of Lyman #2 to be semi-elastic for the base skirt, but tough against the muzzle blast deformation.

[45DUDE]

Precision bullets in Kemp TX. makes a concave base 9mm.