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Thread: Cleaning from the muzzle

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Shawlerbrook's Avatar
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    Very good ^^^ points !

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    Muzzleloaders by design are cleaned from the muzzle and the "unbreakable" fiber glass rods will definitely cause wear if used without a bore guide of some kind.

  3. #23
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawlerbrook View Post
    I think a lot depends on how the cleaning is done and especially the cleaning rod material. Most milsurps used very hard steel cleaning rods. A softer brass or other materials and careful use would probably take decades of shooting and cleaning to do harm.
    Other way 'round. Brass and aluminum rods will embed grit, a hard steel one won't. Harry Pope said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

    I make bore guides by cutting the base off of .223 cases. Or .308 for the larger bores.
    Cognitive Dissident

  4. #24
    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
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    Actually, I don't clean them that often to be a problem, black powder yes definitely clean after shooting, With smokeless corrosive free primers not so much.
    I haven't had any problems, if you're anal, knock yourself out, just be careful, of course they will be willing to sell you a new gun.
    I like my homemade cleaners with the surplus German wicks, Artificial sinew, fishing sinkers and a piece of the German wick folded in half ran thru the bore a couple times and I'm good.
    Of course, if it needs more, I will deal with it.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by winger ed. View Post
    good point.

    I'm a big dewey rod guy, and always wipe off the rod each time it comes out of the bore just for that reason.
    ditto
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmacgyver0 View Post
    Actually, I don't clean them that often to be a problem, black powder yes definitely clean after shooting, With smokeless corrosive free primers not so much.
    once every winter whether they need them or not-- bore snake after each range trip
    Hick: Iron sights!

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    There was a time, of course, when every rifle had to be aggressively cleaned even if it had been fired only once. Which lasted until the advent of non-corrosive primers, which is within living memory for some of us. That's why you find old black-powder guns and even 20th century Winchesters with the rifling gone at the muzzle. And why Stevens among others so loudly touted that THEIR guns could easily be cleaned from the breech.

    Now most guns (excepting of course those fired with Holy Black) can go a whole season with nothing but a pass or two with a bore snake.
    Cognitive Dissident

  8. #28
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    M-Tecs's Avatar
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    Cleaning requirements for the average hunter or shooter are minimal at best. Benchrest shooters and long-range competitors like NRA Highpower, F-Class, PRS or serious prairie dog shooters have a much different set of requirements. There methods work for the average hunter or shooter, however the minimalist techniques used by the average hunter don't work so well for the serious shooter. Lots of variables come into play but the general consensus is accuracy starts to drop off after 80 to 100 rounds on 308 class rifles with match quality barrels.

    I have been asked to rebarrel numerous hunting rifles with relatively low round counts due to accuracy loss. Properly copper and carbon removal restored accuracy.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 06-20-2022 at 12:06 AM.
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  9. #29
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    I totally about cleaning requirements. I had an acquaintance who was moaning about the fact that the barrel on his Marlin 336 was 'shot out' several years ago. He couldn't keep his shots on a paper plate at 50 yards, rested on the hood of his truck. When I asked him when was the last time he cleaned it - really cleaned it, I got the deer in the headlights look. I took his rifle home and gave the bore a thorough cleaning, and it was absolutely disreputably dirty. I spent more time than I should have, cleaning someone else's rifle but it eventually came clean. Then, I made the guy buy some real targets, and go to a rifle range and shoot it off the bench. He was delighted with how well his 'shot-out' barrel performed! No, I won't clean it for you again, was my response.
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  10. #30
    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winger Ed. View Post

    Even in the old days, some high end octagon barrel BP rifles had a custom guide that came with them.

    The arms maker cut a inch or so off the barrel, put little pins in it, and matching holes in the muzzle.

    When using the ram rod, you'd put the end piece back on to protect the crown.

    After the rod was pulled out, you'd take it off and keep it in your pocket.

    While the 1800's false muzzle can certainly be used when cleaning, it's original/main purpose was to ensure seating a conical bullet straight in the muzzle of percussion target rifles.

    .
    Experience is a wonderful thing - It lets you recognize a mistake, when you make it again.

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    One thing about modern-day competition shooters ...... they are shooting j-words which necessarily leave copper in the barrel, and it builds up pretty quickly. They HAVE to clean frequently and aggressively. We cast bullet shooters don't have that problem, as long as we shoot properly sized bullets with smokeless powder.
    Cognitive Dissident

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pietro View Post
    While the 1800's false muzzle can certainly be used when cleaning, it's original/main purpose was to ensure seating a conical bullet straight in the muzzle of percussion target rifles.

    .
    Very correct except false muzzles were widely used with cartridge guns in the days of BP or Duplex loads. It was believed that loading from the muzzle on cartridge guns was more accurate than breech loading due to better alignment and pushing any remaining fouling back.

    http://www.hallowellco.com/false_muz...et_starter.htm

    https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...or-no-52-rifle

    https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=101217214

    https://www.singleshotexchange.com/c...shots-my-pope/

    https://www.pbase.com/halp/hartfordpope

    https://www.pbase.com/halp/pope_ballard

    https://www.morphyauctions.com/james...-barrel-46021/

    A version of false muzzles is making a specialized comeback today. The smokeless long-range muzzleloaders using full sized jacketed bullets use a section of barrel as a push through die to engrave the bullet and slightly undersize it. They turn a taper on the OD and use a matching taper part to compress the ID of the bore so the bullet can be loaded from the muzzle using realistic pressures. That is done on a reloading press.

    The original 1840 patent by Alvan Clark for the “Moveable Loading-Muzzle for Rifles https://patentimages.storage.googlea...51b/US1565.pdf
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 06-30-2022 at 01:02 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
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  13. #33
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    I clean my lever actions from the muzzle. I find a case that fits the bore but doesn't fall through. Drill the primer pocket to accept the rod diameter. You're good to go.

    My dad, who was a tool and die maker, told me that brass rods, being soft, get charged with grime and grit. That is what wears the muzzle--acts like a lap but mildly of course. Damage can be done over MANY cleanings. Steel, being harder does not pick up grime and grit. Pull your rods through a cloth to wipe off the contaminants.
    Rich or poor, it's good to have money.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master

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    On firearms that need to be cleaned from the muzzle several thing help prevent damage
    1) use a good well fitting muzzle guide
    2) use the biggest dia rod possible for the caliber
    3) use the shortest rod possible for the firearm
    4)a good rifle vise or cradle to support the firearm.
    5) wipe the rod often to keep clean.

    The larger dia and shorter rod reduce its flexing, the bore guide keeps it centered. The vise or cradle supports thee firearm in a stable secure way. this can be as simple as a card board box with Vees cut in each end to rest it in.Here also consider cleaning with the rifle upside down to keep solvent from flowing into actions and stocks. wiping the rod removes the abrasive crud getting it away before it can cause damage.

    The dewy service rifle rods are a good example. The ones for the M1A are a good example, around .280 dia for a 30 cal bore ans short like 22" long a much stiffer rod with a good smooth bearing handle.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check