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Thread: What do you like about wad cutters?

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master



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    I often hear and read that wadcutters were designed for paper punching. That is not correct. Currently in the US that is their primary function. Specifically for NRA Bullseye Handgun competition. They work great out to 50 yards and the leave a paper punched type hole. As long as the hole touches the next higher scoring ring it counts. Full WC's do this better than SWC's or any other bullet design.

    Historical I am not sure when the design was first introduced but the Brits used a hollow base hollow point in the .455 Webley manstopper load than later used a flat nose WC.

    http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page...455-cartridges

    It was about this time that the British Government became fixated with "stopping power" (remember the .303 Mk III - "Dum Dum" was approved for service in 1897 and it wasn’t until the 1899 Hague Convention that such ammunition was considered, well, unsporting.) This trend extended to the .455 revolver ammunition and, as a result, the Mark III .455 cartridge appeared in 1898. This has the same .760 ins case but the bullet had a deep nose cavity which reduced its weight to around 220 grains – referred to as the "Manstopper" bullet. Cordite was again the propellant of choice. Some Mark III cases were later loaded with Mark II (conical lead) bullets.


    Obviously production of the Mark III was overtaken by international events and sentiments. It was removed from service in 1900 and the Mark II cartridge was re-instated as a stop-gap measure. Some lengthy experimentation then took place to come up with a more effective bullet and it wasn’t until 12 years later (1912) that the .455 Mark IV cartridge emerged. This used the same case as the previous marks, with a cordite charge and the bullet was 220 grains but with a completely flat nose – basically a full wadcutter in today’s terms. At this point it should be noted that the collector may encounter .455 cartridges which have a bullet nose that is slightly rounded rather than completely flat. These are not Mark IV rounds but commercial target rounds sometimes loaded on surplus military cases.

    The same fear that had resulted in the Mark III "Manstopper" being removed from service resurfaced with the "wadcutter" Mark IV. As a result, the Mark II, reintroduced when the Mark III was withdrawn, remained the service cartridge until the introduction of the Mark VI (see below).

    Despite concerns about the Mark IV, a Mark V .455 cartridge was introduced in 1914. This had the exact same bullet profile as the Mark IV but used a harder lead alloy. It was otherwise identical in construction to the Mark IV and the general consensus amongst military experts is that it was used solely for target practice. It was a very short-lived cartridge and remains quite rare. While headstamps indicating a Mark V case are not uncommon, these are normally found loaded with Mark II bullets.
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  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Full-charge wadcutters driven hard in a ten-inch twist PPC gun are accurate to 100 yards. Fellow in Alaska has published several articles in The Fouling Shot with specifics. It can be done.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Full-charge wadcutters driven hard in a ten-inch twist PPC gun are accurate to 100 yards. Fellow in Alaska has published several articles in The Fouling Shot with specifics. It can be done.
    Thanks for the info. I've never tried them past 50 yards. An old school PPC gun is on my list of projects to build. Haven't decided on twist rate yet.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
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  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    Thanks for the info. I've never tried them past 50 yards. An old school PPC gun is on my list of projects to build. Haven't decided on twist rate yet.
    A Green Mountain 9mm Gunsmith Special with 6 - degree forcing cone works well. If you PM me with an email address which can accept large .pdf attachments I can send the FS issues to you.
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  5. #25
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    Here's the video of my gel test. 2" barrel magnum load.
    https://youtu.be/O7cwfvg-2-w

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    A Green Mountain 9mm Gunsmith Special with 6 - degree forcing cone works well. If you PM me with an email address which can accept large .pdf attachments I can send the FS issues to you.

    What are the FS issue numbers?

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy Rapidrob's Avatar
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    I started shooting the hollow base .357 wad cutters back in the 70's. Accuracy is outstanding.
    For a defensive load, the same bullet inserted into the case backwards ( hard cast ) is devastating to flesh. Yes,cloths will fill the cavity,but the bullet base will expand like crazy and dump all of its energy into the bad guy in the first few inches.
    I wish someone would do a ballistics gel test of one of these backward bullets at speed.
    Even at .38 Special speeds it is deadly.
    M-Tec's post on the Britt's is right on. Their .455 and .380 Man-Stopper loads were well thought out and worked well in combat.
    To this day I shoot a Colt 1911 converted .38 Super to .38 AMU made by Bo-MAR / BARSTO... A .38 Special Wad-cutter only semi-auto pistol.
    I have won many a match using this pistol over the decades
    Last edited by Rapidrob; 06-13-2022 at 12:10 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by justindad View Post
    The MP 38 HBWC is 171 grains solid. Pretty tempting.
    Attachment 301186
    My own experience with the Hollow base version was much less than stellar. Those boolits cling to the mold like a spoiled child hanging on its mother's leg.

    I like WC's for the reduced lead consumption, (I mostly use the 140-ish grain 358-495 or the similar H&G #50), less recoil, pleasantly accurate at distances up to 50 yards, and they kill a Prehle Target dead. I have never seen one continue to attack after taking a 38 mid-range wadcutter to the 10-ring.
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  9. #29
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    Those square lube grooves don’t look good for mold ejection.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
    Here's the video of my gel test. 2" barrel magnum load.
    https://youtu.be/O7cwfvg-2-w
    That's an outstanding video, Steve! Thanks for posting it. I agree, that WC had to be tumbling to cause that impressive wound path.

    You mentioned that these were cast of pure lead, did you experience any leading at all, especially around the forcing cone? Thanks, Treetop
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  11. #31
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    I got a feeling that a hollow point wadcutter would not tumble.
    *
    Why do all wadcutters have square lube grooves? Seems like the low velocity of wadcutter application would allow for a round lube groove with better mold ejection.

  12. #32
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    Take a long hard look at the Lyman # 358432 160 grain weight
    (it was also made in 140 gr.) Lyman has discontinued this wadcutter .
    It is not seated flush in the case but has the first driving band exposed ... it helps with accuracy .
    NOE re=created this mould and if you want it can be had plain base or gas checked .
    I had a old Lyman single cavity mould and all of my 38 and 357's shot this boolit best ... it can be cast and driven as hard as you want . My NOE mould is PB but if I had it to do again maybe a 4 cavity w/ 2-PB and 2- GC .
    This design is often overlooked but should be given some attention .
    Does anyone remember what "term" Lyman calls this WC ... the memory banks are getting slow .
    NOE # 360 - 160 - WC PB (360432) is Noe's number and it weighs 160 grains ... it's just about the only boolit I cast for my 38 / 357's nowdays .
    That flat nose hits hard and the rounded edge makes loading easier and I honestly believe the exposed driving band helps center it up in the chamber ... but I could be all wrong ...it does like to shoot groups that cluster around in a tight circle !
    Gary
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post

    NOE # 360 - 160 - WC PB (360432) is Noe's number and it weighs 160 grains ...
    Gary
    This guy? Do you crimp inside the front lube groove?
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	301248

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by justindad View Post
    This guy? Do you crimp inside the front lube groove?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	385B31EE-9F01-4250-83B4-BF6A30E2C9BF.jpeg 
Views:	20 
Size:	72.3 KB 
ID:	301248
    That's it !
    I wish I knew how you computer guys move stuff around like drawings ... that's amazing !

    The drawing doesn't show it ...but just below the top driving band is a crimp groove ... Al can't get the CAD drawing software to draw crimp grooves ... they all look like grease grooves ... crimp gooves and grease grooves ... But the crimp groove is in just the correct spot like Lyman 358432 shows on it's bullet chart ... I have a NOE 3 cavity aluminum and it's a sweetheart . Not as heavy as a 4 cavity but more productive than a 2 cavity.
    Gary
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treetop View Post
    That's an outstanding video, Steve! Thanks for posting it. I agree, that WC had to be tumbling to cause that impressive wound path.

    You mentioned that these were cast of pure lead, did you experience any leading at all, especially around the forcing cone? Thanks, Treetop
    I haven't gotten any leading with these loads. They hold lots of lube and usually I don't shoot a whole lot at one time. The next time I cast them I may powder coat. From my experience with pure lead hollow points powder coat eliminates any leading problems.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
    That's it !
    I wish I knew how you computer guys move stuff around like drawings ... that's amazing !

    The drawing doesn't show it ...but just below the top driving band is a crimp groove ... Al can't get the CAD drawing software to draw crimp grooves ... they all look like grease grooves ... crimp gooves and grease grooves ... But the crimp groove is in just the correct spot like Lyman 358432 shows on it's bullet chart ... I have a NOE 3 cavity aluminum and it's a sweetheart . Not as heavy as a 4 cavity but more productive than a 2 cavity.
    Gary
    Are the grease grooves round? If so, I just might be short $100 momentarily

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
    Take a long hard look at the Lyman # 358432 160 grain weight
    (it was also made in 140 gr.) Lyman has discontinued this wadcutter .
    It is not seated flush in the case but has the first driving band exposed ... it helps with accuracy .
    NOE re=created this mould and if you want it can be had plain base or gas checked .
    I had a old Lyman single cavity mould and all of my 38 and 357's shot this boolit best ... it can be cast and driven as hard as you want . My NOE mould is PB but if I had it to do again maybe a 4 cavity w/ 2-PB and 2- GC .
    This design is often overlooked but should be given some attention .
    Does anyone remember what "term" Lyman calls this WC ... the memory banks are getting slow .
    NOE # 360 - 160 - WC PB (360432) is Noe's number and it weighs 160 grains ... it's just about the only boolit I cast for my 38 / 357's nowdays .
    That flat nose hits hard and the rounded edge makes loading easier and I honestly believe the exposed driving band helps center it up in the chamber ... but I could be all wrong ...it does like to shoot groups that cluster around in a tight circle !
    Gary
    I have a really nice 4 cavity IDEAL 358432 with a thick sprue plate and drops a .360 round boolit, I am getting old and fixing to thin out.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by justindad View Post
    This guy? Do you crimp inside the front lube groove?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	385B31EE-9F01-4250-83B4-BF6A30E2C9BF.jpeg 
Views:	20 
Size:	72.3 KB 
ID:	301248
    The nose on the first band is a bit smaller and most S&W's throats are .357. I crimp in the crimp groove. I resize to .357 and .358- depends on the gun. Just make sure it will drop in before you make a lot. If you crimp in a grease groove it needs to be .357.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by stubshaft View Post
    I've shot them in 38/357, 44 and 45 cals. they are very accurate out to 50 yards then they fall off like a pile of bricks.
    Couldn’t have said it better myself. Exception being my mild 148gr 38s loaded with 2.8 of Bullseye. I’m lucky getting them on paper at 35 yards without 10-12 inches of Kentucky hold over. 10-20 yards they cluster up nicely. For a very short time I got spectacular and I do mean “spectacular” results with a hollow base 41 mag wadcutter. However casting them was a very frustrating experience, the reject rate was well over 50%.

  20. #40
    Boolit Mold Quinnbrian's Avatar
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    I have a swaging kit in 38 wadcutter. Old Pacific press model from days gone by....I cast 9mm , 147 's and put them in the swaging press and Squish them out to 38, works well.
    Now I just have to find a nice lever in 357/38....at a decent price!
    Cheers
    Brian

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check