Help with 33” twist .58 Zouave

[Cyrus]

Hello. I recently acquired a Zouave repro by Armi Jager in .58 cal. This one has a fast twist 1-33”, which seems rare for these type guns. Usually 48” or 66” I believe. I didn’t check the rifling twist when I bought it or I might have left it in the rack. It’s not shooting standard Minie balls (575213) worth a hoot. I’ve heard some say heavier bullets should work. I’m amazed that there is zero mention in internet searches of the 33” twist in this or another .58 cal. I’d love to know what people used successfully since I’m assuming Armi Jager did this for a reason. Thanks in advance for any guidance.

[Outpost75]

The fast twist was intended for shooting light target loads. Try 40 grains of 3Fg with your Minie instead of a full service charge. You will be pleasantly surprised.

[Cyrus]

I will try that ASAP. Thank you!

[Good Cheer]

Interesting. Does it have the standard three groove rifling?

[stubshaft]

+1 - Lighter load, longer bullet.

[john.k]

Im surprised....I have a Jaegaer Zouave ,since new around 1970,and I always understood they were kind of low on the totem pole of replicas,but it shoots OK..........The 1 in 48" twist is acknowledged best for a 58,so I suppose a 33 isnt that far off............Although ,I might add,when someone says a minie rifle wont shoot....I say look at your bullets.....9 out of 10,the alloy is too hard ......many commercial minies are simply too hard.

[oldracer]

Hummmm, I have several 50 caliber rifles with 1 in 48 twist and all I shoot in all of them is a patched round ball? I shoot them out to 100 yards without any issues and all are about 1MOA in accuracy. I shoot them off hand after getting sights set while on a bench rest so I would suggest trying some pillow ticking patches and a few pure lead round balls. Several of the shooters at our monthly muzzle loader matches have 54, 58 and and even a 70 (?) caliber and all told me they are faster twist than the 1 in 66 like the long rifles use. I would also suggest a full bore load such as 80 to 90 grains of FFG during the testing and also use a bench rest of some sort to take you out of the equation.
John

[Outpost75]

Important also to shoot soft alloy, pure lead or 1 to 40 Sn-Pb

[Cyrus]

Interesting. Does it have the standard three groove rifling?

It does have three groove rifling.

[Good Cheer]

You remind me sir that I need to test some paper patches.

[dave951]

Hello. I recently acquired a Zouave repro by Armi Jager in .58 cal. This one has a fast twist 1-33”, which seems rare for these type guns. Usually 48” or 66” I believe. I didn’t check the rifling twist when I bought it or I might have left it in the rack. It’s not shooting standard Minie balls (575213) worth a hoot. I’ve heard some say heavier bullets should work. I’m amazed that there is zero mention in internet searches of the 33” twist in this or another .58 cal. I’d love to know what people used successfully since I’m assuming Armi Jager did this for a reason. Thanks in advance for any guidance.

First off, I doubt that it's 1:33. Second, have you actually measured your bore size? Not with calipers, but plug gauges. Third, where did you get your minies? There's only one commercial source I trust for minies, and that's Lodgewood. Fourth, what are you using for lube? It matters, alot. Fifth, load data. What powder, caps, and amounts. It matters.

But what do I know about shooting minies-

[Tasbay]

I`d check the twist to be sure. Wrap a patch around your ramrod end so its a tight fit in the barrel. Push it down. Mark it and slowly pull out, you should get a full rotation of indeed 1-33 or half a turn if 1-66 which all the ones I know of were.
I have a Zoil Zauave and gave up shooting Minie bullets out of it. It shoots .562 Wheel weight Round balls, ticking patch and 100 grains of powder beautifully.

[oldracer]

As a possible help, my late mentor showed me how had done the twist rate check for nearly 50 years. First get a cleaning rod, preferably a white one, second get several various sized ends so you can test ALL your rifles and even any cap and ball revolvers you may have. Third lay out inch marks all along the rod using non removable marker and a straight line aalong the side of the rod. Fourth lable each inch mark so you can keep track of what is happening. Fifth have a helper, I used my late wife who died in Januaary but all my guns are measured so you can wrap cleaning patches so things are tight when you push the rod to the bottom and the helper can record what comes out. Sixth try it out and record the readings, do it again and maybe a third time even.

Last of all record your readings and what barrel in your range book....don't have one....get one. NOTE, if the readings seem strange read the muzzle area, then read the beach are as a "grain twist" barrel will show strange as one I bought several years ago and found eventually it was one made up in Canada by Ron Smith (only paid $350, a steal)!
John

[Good Cheer]

Cyrus, if you do happen to yet need bore measurement there's a simple method that works well enough to find out what size minies should be tried. It involves using the rifling to machine down the outside diameter of minies. Start with a minie that's larger than your bore. Using a set of channel locks (or big enough pliers) to hold the nose of the minie you twist it down the bore base first for a while to make it conform to the distance between the lands. After you try it a few times and get comfortable with your technique the resulting cylindrical surfaces can be measured to get a pretty good ball park on what your minie diameter should be.

Or if you have a buddy with a set of pin gauges they work OK too!

[john.k]

Any minie rifle,the bullets should slip not tight,not loose into the muzzle ......fail to hit target is caused by wrong/no lube,or hard lead.........beeswax and olive oil is good,but all the 1960s revues of these guns used Crisco ...I dont even know if this is still on the market,but the pics always showed a squeeze bottle being used,straight from the bottle .

[dave951]

We shoot minies in competition in the North South Skirmish Association and yeah, accuracy matters alot. Zoli "Zouaves" are well regarded in our organization as being pretty accurate and a great starter minie rifle. I have yet to see one that can't be made to shoot accurately that wasn't damaged by neglect or bubba.

There is no magic to making one shoot. Follow these steps and it will work if there's nothing physically wrong with the rifle.

1) Use only quality pure lead minies sized to .001 under your bore size and that means the MEASURED, CONFIRMED bore size. Not what you think it is, not what the gun shop guy said it is, not what some yahoo on utoob said it is. They vary.
2) Use only real black powder, preferably 3f in moderate charges. Best accuracy is usually in the 40ish grain range. Like grades of gasoline, there are grades of black powder. "Reenactor" powder is best only for blanks. Swiss is the stuff for best results. If you're price sensitive on this, don't whine about results.
3) Use only good quality caps. Current production CCI are garbage for accuracy. Scheutzen or RWS.
4) Lube. Lots of folks like Crisco, but there are others that work better. I've found beeswax/lard to work very well. Do NOT fill the base with lube, you're asking for flyers. Do not use a petroleum base lube, it doesn't play nice with real black fouling.
5) Don't be afraid to experiment. There are differing minie weights and designs and one size won't work in all guns.

A word here on Crisco. I experimented a bit with it after reading a thread in a muzzleloading forum about accuracy falling off about the time Crisco changed the formulation to cut down on triglycerides to prevent heart disease. I happened to have an old can and bought a new one to see. It's true. The old stuff, no longer available was better so I went in search of a better substitute. Lard/tallow work very well, not like it was the original stuff used back in the day or anything, so there's no need to reinvent the wheel here.

Other things that can have an effect on accuracy- nipple condition. If a reenactor drilled out the nipple, it's trashed. Go buy a good nipple. They are wear items and if you shoot much at all, plan on regular replacement to maintain accuracy. I change mine out about every 6mo, but I shoot minies far more than the casual shooter. Also check that the flash channel is clean and clear.

[masscaster]

The recommended boolit for the rifle is the Lyman #575213OS with OS denoting the Old Style/Original. It's a 450 gr. Minie.
Some of the old target shooters also used Lyman #575494 Minie, but this one can be from 220 gr. up to 305 depending on the hollow base plug used. It looks a lot like the H&G 68 with extra lube grooves.

Hope this helps,
Jeff

[john.k]

I got the same rifle,wish it was a PH 1858,but it aint.........anyhoo,shooting it for over 50 years,and only minie I found accurate was the PH 510gr style ,the mould was made by Lyman,and still is......cast from roofing lead,lubed with my mix of paraffin wax and EP gear oil (all wrong ,I know) ,I can shoot it all day without fouling...........it was once fired at a kids demonstration day,ran out of bullets,cast more bullets at lunch break ,and fired till range close time.

[rmark]

The 1998 Dixie Gunworks catalog shows their Armisport Zouave with 1-56 twist, Euroarms with 1-66 twist. The 1976 catalog doesn’t list twist rates unfortunately.