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Thread: Loading lee 7/8 slugs with cheddite hulls and Unique

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Loading lee 7/8 slugs with cheddite hulls and Unique

    I jumped into shotshell reloading last year on a whim and quickly realized it isn't as simple as brass rounds. I got some good info here, but started building a house before I got myself tuned in. I loaded up about 10 test rounds with Red Dot and never even shot them. With the house, moving in, setting up, winter, etc. I am just sitting back down to it.

    Components were, and are a bit of an issue, but with a bunch of reading I think I have cross referenced diligently and have a safe starting point.

    I have 2 3/4 Cheddite hulls, which by my understanding are compatible with Fiocchi, Rio, Nobel, Gold Medal, and Top Gun load data.

    I have multiple primer options, but I have 1500 Cheddite 209 which I understand are almost directly interchangeable (verified by Alliant) with Win 209, CCI 209, and Rio 209. Green Dot -1/2 gr, Red dot minus a full grain according to thread comments..

    I bought what wads were available before I realized they were load specific and then bought 12S0 for the Cheddite hulls. I have WAA12SL, WAA12, Figure 8, WAA12L, 12S0 and TGT12

    I have Green Dot, Red Dot, Titegroup, and Unique. GD and RD are easy. It's the Unique load that is harder to find data for, and I want a load for unique because I have 4 lbs.

    I found this load data on Castboolits..
    ------
    7/8 oz lee key drive slug filled with bore butter
    fed top gun hull
    cheddite 209 primer
    CB fed 12s0 wad
    23 grains unique
    tested at 950 -980 fps

    24.7 grains of unique
    tested at 1213 fps

    the same load with 20 grns of promo/red dot
    tested 1141 fps
    -------

    I am mainly posting to make sure that my thinking is sound, but also being familiar with starting grains and max loads I am wondering how to work up a shotshell load. There is very little comparable data to extrapolate safe working loads with different components. I would like to start in a 'safe' range but I'm not sure if dropping powder charge too much has negative consequences.

    Comparing with this load with reported light recoil also from castboolits..
    --------
    Federal Hull
    22.9 grains Unique
    Federal 12S3 wad (pink)
    Hard wad (custom made)
    1.3 cc COW I've searched, but I still don't know what this is!
    Lee 7/8 oz Key Drive Slug (~370 grains)
    ---------

    There is room for a spacer in the 12S0. I am thinking I'll use a Cheddite hull and Cheddite 209 primer, 12S0 wad, cardboard spacer, 7/8 slug and 22.5? starting grains of Unique.

    Lyman's 5th has 25 gr of Unique in Gold Medal hulls with CCI209 primers and 12S4 wads at 1300 fps and 1080 psi. I have a chrono and will test velocities to gauge similarities before increasing powder charge.


    What do you say, have I done enough homework to do this safely?

    Any Load recommendations based on my components. I have 12S3 wads available and think I might order some. I saw some titewad but that is about all that's available for powder. I can't find Red or Green Dot anywhere.

    Edit- I'll be shooting it out of a 590 Mossberg 3" chamber.
    Last edited by castinboolits; 06-06-2022 at 04:45 AM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Cow is cream of wheat, used as a filler.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I'd have to check back to look at actual load data but I can say that I got inconsistent burn using Unique under Lee 7/8 oz. slug.

    I didn't want to use up my remaining Green Dot for testing the slugs and assumed Unique would be fast enough to work under the light slug. I used 1 1/8 oz. birdshot load data for those slugs.

    Some shot fine and gave decent accuracy but several were near bloopers so I have to think the payload was too light to build pressure for good powder burn.

    I didn't get any actual bloopers, just a few that gave light recoil, low muzzle blast and unburned powder in the bore.

    I'll see if I can find the powder charge. It was a birdshot load from a manual.

    Longbow

  4. #4
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    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
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    My standard load for Lee 1 oz. Slugs is AA hull, WAA12 wad with an 1/8" card under the slug, 18 gr of Green Dot, and a Fold Crimp. For 7/8oz slugs you will probably need another card or so under the Slug to make stack height. These work fine as practice rounds and accuracy from smooth bores is minute of pie plate. YMMV on the accuracy.

    The problem with Green Dot is that there won't be any available for at least 2 years according to Alliant. I managed to score an 8lb jug last week for one of my Hand Presses, and I got a 12 lb keg of 700X which is very close to GD on Saturday for $100!!! I am good on shotgun powder for the foreseeable future.

    Slug accuracy in shotguns is all about Slug Fit in the bore. The measurement around the outside of the wad with the slug inside needs to be at least .725, and if you have a Rifled Barrel more like .730 will yield excellent accuracy.

    my .02

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    My standard load for Lee 1 oz. Slugs is AA hull...
    Randy
    Thanks for the replies,

    It would make things a lot easier if I could find some more common hulls.

    Is cream of wheat used to replace wads and cards? Just fill up any empty space as you see fit, or is there a little more expertise than that?

    I assume because no one jumped all over me that there is nothing in my original post about components that is causing any alarm?

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post

    Slug accuracy in shotguns is all about Slug Fit in the bore. The measurement around the outside of the wad with the slug inside needs to be at least .725, and if you have a Rifled Barrel more like .730 will yield excellent accuracy.



    Randy
    I had read that I won't get any accuracy if I don't have a good fit. One recommendation was to fit the wad and slug in the barrel and force it through on a scale, you want about 10 lbs resistance to ensure a tight fit.

    Calipers seem like a better option!
    Last edited by castinboolits; 06-06-2022 at 07:56 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I'd have to check back to look at actual load data but I can say that I got inconsistent burn using Unique under Lee 7/8 oz. slug.


    I'll see if I can find the powder charge.

    Longbow
    I would really appreciate that. It's at least one more point of reference. Were you using your Fiocchi hulls in this load?

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Okay then... I dug around some and find old Alliant info for 1 1/8 oz. birdshot for Fiocchi hulls using 23.5 grs. of Unique at 6800 PSI. I can't say for sure but I believe I used about 23 grs. of Unique in Federal field hulls fold crimped.

    My suspicion is that the 1/4 oz. lighter payload was too light to generate enough pressure for consistent burn. Thst and the fact that slugs generate less bore friction than birdshot loads. Possibly a roll crimp would have provided better resistance at ignition. Most rounds seemed fine but two or three out of ten did not give proper powder burn. The Alliant info lists up to 27 grs. of Unique for 1 1/8 oz. payload gnerating 8600 PSI so still not a high pressure load at all.

    Had I looked harder, I had load data for Lee 7/8 oz. slug in my Reloading for Shotguns manual! For Federal field hulls it lists 33 grs. of Unique at 10,000 PSI. So, 23 grs.+/- of Unique under a 7/8 oz. slug in a straight walled hull is not going to generate unsafe pressure.

    Of course as usual in shotshell reloading just to make life difficult there aren't any listings for Federal field hulls with heavier slugs! They do list Fiocchi hulls with 1 1/8 oz. slug and 32 grs. Unique at 9,500 PSI. mNot the same hull but still a straight walled hull.

    You won't run into unsafe pressures with what you are doing but may get bloopers due to light load and low pressure. If you get a lighter recoiling round that doesn't sound right check your bore for anything that may be left over. The danger is that if slug or wad don't exit the bore and you chamber and shoot another round without checking you could have a bore obstruction.

    As for the COW, yes it is used as a filler but usually under a round ball or slug in a shotcup and generally to raise the slug up to get proper crimp height for fold crimps. That recipe may have used COW under the wad to raise it up for crimp height.

    Longbow

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks Longbow. That's a lot to work with.

    I'm not going to start anywhere near, and likely won't finish up anywhere near the high side, either. I'm looking for a functional load with an easy recoil that's fun to blast off a bunch. Those loads do make me feel very comfortable working up to the 25-27 grain range. Would you think it would be reasonable to expect safe pressures up to 30ish grains?

    Obviously recoil, velocity, wad condition, slug performance and so on are going to offer clues as I work up. I just want to make sure I am understanding the possibilities of the load.

    comparing other load data for a given load with the same components, 7/8 has a higher charge than 1 ounce, and that higher than 1 1/8, and that again over 1 1/4. The wads change to accommodate the larger load, but given the rest of the components don't change, the charge always drops as the load increases and pressures remain pretty consistent. Would it be considered safe to push towards the 32 grains of the fiocchi load as people often state they interchange fiocchi and Cheddite data and any variance might be mitigated by the 7/8 slug or are pressure signs to difficult to identify as one moves up?

    Same with the 7/8 load at 33 grains. Could it be expected that to work up to 28-29 grains would be safe while watching pressure, velocity, etc. considering there's a 4 grain allowance to compensate for slight hull variance? Or is this just reckless

    If I'm off the mark please say so. I am comfortable to deviate from written data using common sense, I just want to make sure my thought processes are demonstrating it. I am 100% not asking you to tell me what to do either. Just trying to make sense of things.

  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
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    If you have any input on the above comment I would appreciate it.

    I am not ruling out Unique, but I can use it in other loads. I managed to find some 700x and American select. I am just searching through data, now.

  11. #11
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    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
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    700X and Green Dot are nearly identical in volume. The same bushing in my Pacific machines does 18 gr of GD and 19 gr of 700X, however the velocity and pressure generated is the same on both loads.

    Point being they both load to the same stack height so no changes in the machine setup..

    News Flash: I just scored a 12 lb. Keg of 700X last Saturday for $100 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! However it cost me $106 in fuel to go pick it up! But 12 lb. for $206 is still a screamin' deal!!!!!! $17/lb.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 06-07-2022 at 01:28 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    So far 700X is looking really good. 12S0, TGT12, and WAA12SL 1oz load options in Cheddite hulls,with Cheddite primers, 1200fps in the 7500psi range. Nice, safe, and simple.

    Same with the American Select. Cheddite 1oz loads, 12S0 wads 1300fps 7600psi.

    If I bought 4 lbs of either I would have enough powder to match my primers and hulls once I run out or red and green do,t and both work out to about 11 cents a load.

    As I said I can still give Unique a go, but I'm liking this thought process better.

    Any personal experience or preference over either? From cost perspective I don't have much to consider. American standard has legit Cheddite data, 700x I have to use gold medal or other straight wall data.

  13. #13
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks!

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have not used Cheddite hulls so no experience there but they are a straight walled hull so other than basewad height they should be fine using other straight walled hull data but with adjustment to wad column height to get proper crimp.

    Here is a link to Dave In Arizona hull volumes that may be useful:

    https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/12-ga-2-75-hull-volumes/

    Longbow

  15. #15
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I have not used Cheddite hulls so no experience there but they are a straight walled hull so other than basewad height they should be fine using other straight walled hull data but with adjustment to wad column height to get proper crimp.

    Here is a link to Dave In Arizona hull volumes that may be useful:

    https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/12-ga-2-75-hull-volumes/

    Longbow
    Thank you, once again. I do believe you have pointed me in that direction before. I have the volumes printed off in my loading binder.

    I haven't made the run to grab the other powders yet, but I do intend to try both which alleviates most of the concern. can use up the Unique with other calibers.

    As far as understanding goes, though, do you think what I posted in post 9 of this thread is safe thinking. I am just trying to make sure I am not thinking too much like a brass loader and assuming I can do things that might make an unsafe load.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I think you are okay in your assesment.

    I have a listing in an old Hercules powder manual showing 7/8 oz. slug, 33 grs. Unique, Federal Hi Power plastic hull, Federal 209 (not 209A) primer, all card wad column, 10,000 PSI. No plastic gas seal in this one though.

    I also have from BPI listings for AQ slugs at 445 grs. (so just over 1 oz.) in Fiocchi hulls using Unique in charges from 29 grs. to 34.5 grs. depending on wad column.

    And I have 0.680" RB recipes frpom BPI for:

    - Fiocchi hi base hulls using 27 grs. of Unique at 8600 PSI/1300 FPSand Fio 616 primer
    - Cheddite hull usingf 27 grs. of Unique in 2 different loads, one using roll crimp and one using fold crimp at 8600 PSI/1300 FPS and 8500PSI/1290 FPS, both with Fio 616 primer

    I don't see a problem loading as you have suggested up to 29 grs. of Unique in a straight walled hull using a standard primer like Winchester 209 or equivalent (non magnum primer) for 7/8 oz. slug. As I said, I loaded approx. 23 grs. of Unique under the Lee 7/8 oz. slug in Federal field hulls and got some near bloopers so I recommend that you pay attention and check the bore if you are using light charges and you get lower recoil and noise. You are more likely to have a blooper than to run into over pressure at the charges you are looking at. I think a faster powder would be a better choice for the 7/8 oz. slug but Unique at "proper" charge (more than 23 grs.) should work fine.

    I should also mention that there are some things that can affect pressure pretty significantly:

    - primer ~ a switch from a standard primer to a hot primer like Federal 209A can increase pressure by up to about 3000 PSI
    - removal of a cushion leg as in cutting the cusion leg off or replacing a wad with cushion leg with a hard card wad column can cause significant increase in pressure due to less volume (lack of crush)
    - deeper than normal roll crimps can raise pressure by up to about 3000 PSI

    This assumes you are following a recipe but make one of the above changes.

    The removal of cushion leg caught me! I was using a recipe but full bore slugs instead of same weight wad slugs so replaced the cushion leg wad with a plastic gas seal and hard card wad column. I got much harder than expected recoil and sticky extraction. Not good! Took me a bit to figure out what happened but some cross referencing between cushion leg wads and hard card wads indicated that the pressure increases when the cushion is removed.

    I can't say that I have noticed any problems with roll crimps but I don't normally make really deep roll crimps. Now that I know that can be bad I pay attention and raise the payload rather than rolling deeper.

    And "pressure signs"... there really aren't dependable pressure signs like with brass cartridge reloading. The first you are likely to get is sticky extraction and that is apparently well over pressure so not something you want to be happening.

    You are asking the right questions and I don't see a problem with what you are proposing but don't get carried away and start trying to work up a load from scratch. Shotshell reloading isn't as predictable as brass cartridge reloading and you can't easily work up until pressure signs show up. By the time you are seeing sticky extraction or flattened primers your load is already over pressure. That's my take anyway. Use publsihed recipes and use caution and cross reference with any substitutions. Using lighter payload or lighter powder charge won't cause safety issues with regards to high pressure but could result in a blooper leaving a bore obstruction so use caution and prove the loads are getting proper ignition befoer doing any rapid fire with lighter than published loads.

    Play but play safe!

    Longbow

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    Perfect. Thank you for taking the time to write that.

    "And "pressure signs"... there really aren't dependable pressure signs like with brass cartridge reloading. The first you are likely to get is sticky extraction and that is apparently well over pressure so not something you want to be happening."

    Pressure signs was the wrong choice of words. It will be evident going from a weak recoil, light load to coming up to a normal recoil and should... In my estimation be a bit of a guide that a fella is starting to push the limits ( which is not my goal) of the data chosen. I am looking to find some reliable loads that are fun, I have other powder options if I want to load hot.

    I appreciate it though, I would rather over question than do something stupid

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check