.45/70 brass questions

[Rick R]

i use 24g of 2400 with a quarter sheet of toilet paper to hold the powder against the primer in my SBL .pleasant and accurate load.

I’ve seen writings both pro and con for using a filler with 2400. In the past I used a half cotton ball in my .405 with Unique and a .41 cast boolit. I also used dacron but can’t stand the burnt plastic smell.

A 1/4 sheet of TP is certainly an economical fix (unless there’s another shortage)

[pworley1]

I use the Hornady brass just the same as the other brass. I seat the bullets to the same over all length as other brass and it works the same in all my rifles.

[Intel6]

I save the hornady brass for when i load full house hunting loads using FTX bullets in two of my 1895 marlins.

I do exactly the same thing. That is what they were made for so why not keep them in that role. I use Starline for all my other loading for my Marlin SBL.

[FrankJD]

i use 24g of 2400 with a quarter sheet of toilet paper to hold the powder against the primer in my SBL .pleasant and accurate load.

The Quigley Match has seen several accidents where both appear to be caused by wads over double based powder, though single base can also be a culprit. I would not wad smokeless, too risky. With black powder cartridge builds, I'll compact the powder via a drop tube and then at least slightly compress both the powder and a .060" LDPE wad, the PPB is pushed in to complete the cartridge.

Off the Quigley Match site ...

Quigley Match Safety

The Quigley Match has a very credible safety record over its twenty-four years with 443,190 bullets sent down range during competition. Including sighting in, practice and just having fun shooting, there have easily been over a million cartridges fired at the Quigley range. There have been two accidents involving injuries, one during a match and the other during practice. That is a .0002 percent accident rate. Both accidents were equipment related and preventable with one involving a weak receiver and the other a badly ringed chamber and use of untrimmed brass. There have been other safety infractions over the years including accidental discharges and rifles pointed in an unsafe direction regardless of whether they are loaded. That is why specific safety procedures above and beyond basic gun safety rules are required and enforced at the Quigley Match.

Everyone at the Quigley Match is a safety officer and responsible for correcting observed unsafe actions.
All uncased rifles off the firing line must have the action open and have either an empty chamber indicator or blow tube inserted in the chamber to show that there is no cartridge chambered.
Rifles must be on the cross sticks when a cartridge is chambered (regardless of how you do it at your home range).This ensures that any accidental discharge is directed down range.
Off-hand stands must be used when shooting the off-hand target.Use of the stands keeps all rifles pointed down range and prevents sweeping the crowd with the muzzle of the rifle, especially by youth or inexperienced shooters.

Antique and vintage rifles (including trapdoors) need to be inspected for mechanical issues by a qualified individual. If smokeless powder loads are used they cannot exceed published trapdoor level 1 loads.

Smokeless powder is allowed for modern reproduction rifles using safe published data. No over- powder wads are allowed if using a double-base powder (over-powder wads are cotton or Dacron or similar wads pushed down into the cartridge case over the powder column with the intention of holding the powder column tight against the primer and leaving an air space between the over-powder wad and the base of the bullet or card wad at the base of the bullet). The most popular one used at the Quigley Match is Accurate Arms 5744. If you don’t know if your powder is double-base, check the manufacturer’s website and find the Material Safety Data Sheet for the powder. If the composition in Part 3 includes nitroglycerin it is a double-base powder. Do not use smokeless powder to achieve “hot loads” or exceed published loading data. Smokeless powder should only be used to achieve black powder equivalent loads. When cartridge case powder fill is less than 50% extreme caution should be used to avoid the possibility of double charging. You must physically check every case!

No side arms are allowed regardless of being part of your period outfit.

Following the accident during practice before the match, I was castigated by the ‘internet experts’ for saying on our website that shooting is an inherently dangerous sport. Sorry folks, but the Forsyth Rifle and Pistol Club stands by that statement. The danger is due to use of gunpowder (black, smokeless or substitutes), primers, bullets, and other components that are assembled into a cartridge and fired in a mechanical device in front of your face. The greatest risk factor in the entire process is the human one. People make mistakes. I would challenge any long term shooter to make the claim they have never personally had an accidental discharge of a rifle or been witness to it with another shooter. A shot before you intended the trigger to break that is safe and down range is still an accidental discharge. How many experienced reloaders have never recognized a mistake in their procedures that they corrected that could have been potentially dangerous if not discovered? How many of you have in fact only discovered the problem after you pulled the trigger and realized ‘something wasn’t right’?

Bottom line, shooting is a very safe sport if shooters do their part by using proper reloading data and techniques and follow safe rifle handling procedures. But the human factor always brings in the possibility of an unsafe situation. The Quigley Match cannot eliminate all risks entirely but we can mitigate those risks by establishing procedures that promote safety by our participants.

Safety Issues of Concern

Note: This is not a directive on how to reload. It is a note of caution and a warning about some of the dangers. If you reload for yourself or others, you do so at your own risk.

The last few years it has become increasingly clear that certain reloading practices are increasing the dangers inherent is our sport of rifle shooting. We will try to outline some of these practices and dangers so you are made aware of them. Not all of these are fully understood since the science is a difficult one to observe and the effects are likely variable due to even minute changes in the causing condition, equipment and other parts of the equation.

Three basic types of powder are used in our sport although they are often listed as two (black powder and smokeless). These basic types are more directly labeled as black powder (and substitute), single-base smokeless (nitrocellulose) and double base smokeless (which has an added buffered nitroglycerine component).

The primary problem we have been experiencing has been unexpected loss of control of the propellant combustion.

Powder manufacturers have experimented greatly in this regard and, with loaded ammunition provided by them, have maintained a cautious approach with a generous (though not large) margin for safety. They, by demand, also supply reloading supplies to their customers and by various means have supplied safety guidelines for the use of their product. This is where we come into the picture. We reload because the volume of our shooting demands cost savings.

The problem is showing up as damaged firearms and some explosions that can injure and/or kill people. There is always an inherent danger in our sport, but the practices of some are making it more so.

A number of rifles have emerged with the dreaded chamber ring. This is often first noticed as sticking cases and, when inspecting the cases, a noticeable, protruding ring is found around the case approximately where the base of the bullet would be inside the case. Carrying this inspection further shows a ring in the wall of the chamber at this point. This chamber ring is an indication of being close to the pressures that will burst the gun.

So far, virtually all of these known instances have been with the use of double-based powder and usually (admittedly) using a wad in the case that held the powder back against the primer. These are usually lighter loads in large cases.

The facts are that the manufacturers have sold this powder carefully marked as double-based and have made efforts to inform the user not to use an over-powder wad with it (card wad, cotton wad, polyester fiber wad or other types). Some have cautioned not to use reduced charges (below a recommended minimum charge).

The use of a wad over the powder provides an air space between the ignited powder and the base of the bullet. The powder is ignited and burns from behind, pushing the unburned powder in front of the burn. The unburned powder gains momentum and gathers heat. The air is compressed but the bullet remains stationary. Then, the unburned powder slams into the base of the bullet. The powder is sensitive to temperature and impact. At this point, both are provided and a new rate of burn and energy release comes into play. It’s best thought of as a new, highly volatile explosion, usually called detonation, of the unburned powder.

The manufacturer has carefully tested the powder in single-cavity chambers and has provided guidelines for such use, but the separated cavity with the wad and associated airspace hasn’t been (and presently can’t be) fully accounted for. The pressures generated will displace solid steel by extrusion, shear or rupture depending on the strength of the steel and the pressure generated by the exploding force. Small increases in powder charge or resistance to the movement of the bullet can be the difference.
The difference between a chamber ring and a burst barrel may be only a couple of grains of the unburned powder before the detonation. Double-based powder is very useful without the wad. With an over-powder wad, it’s a dangerous commodity – the air gap being the problem and not the wad itself. Air compresses a long way before much pressure is generated. A case full of air compressed down to almost nothing won’t move a bullet.

It should be noted that a wad isn’t needed to supply the air gap. Simply pointing a lightly loaded rifle straight up (providing a volume of air space between the powder and the bullet without a wad) will do that and, therefore, a rifle loaded with a chamber-ringing below load data level of powder will ring the chamber without the presence of a wad.

All gun powders are temperature and percussion-sensitive but single-based powder (nitrocellulose) is much less sensitive than double-based powders and within reason can be controlled.
The use of a wad and air gap with single-based powders is much less apt to damage or destroy a firearm than with double-based powders, but it can be done with improper load data and careless reloading procedures.

Black powder is also very sensitive to heat and percussion and does cause this phenomenon of sudden increase in pressure in the presence of an air gap, but in equal quantities develops much less pressure than either type of smokeless powder. However, too much of any gunpowder will blow up and destroy a firearm.

The air gap phenomenon described above does occur with black powder, although with a relatively milder detonation. With certain loads it can blow up a gun and has done so in the past. The use of a small quantity of smokeless powder or finer grade of black powder (4Fg or dust) to ignite a normal load of black powder will cause the coarser powder to burn with a greater intensity and pressure and present the danger of burst rifles. An included air gap will also add to the pressure – sometimes greatly so.

An overcharge of any powder can blow up a gun and many things can and do cause pressure increases. Some of these are: heavier bullets, longer bullets, bullets engraved into the rifling, harder bullets, dirty bullets, bullets with inclusions, obstructions in the bore (even soft things like mud or a bug, sometimes even water), hotter primers, cases too long for the chamber and wrong powder. Since some shooters are pushing the envelope of pressure already, any of the aforementioned items can push the pressures beyond what can be contained, and an unexpected, uncontrolled explosion will result.

Another consideration is the strength of the steel of the barrel and the rifle action. Modern steels are in general much stronger than antique steels, but some modern steels are stronger than others. Be aware of the strength of your rifle.

Be safe and stay within known guidelines. We want you all to enjoy the sport of shooting for many years to come.

[oldbear1950]

I was given some of the hornady funky bullets for 45-70 but all I ever loaded was regular bullets. I was told could not load the funky pointed bullets in regular cases and that is all I have. Want some bullets? Can not even find any of the shorty brass in this area. Nor can I find any of the cartridges to shot and get brass. Did not know star line made 45-70 brass. Have some new Remington brass, about 54 boxes that I bought years ago and never loaded. Plus been given a lot of Remington, winchester, and hornady brass.

[oldbear1950]

I meant about 5 or 6 boxes not 54 boxes, sometimes fingers get all confused as I am typing

[elmacgyver0]

I’ve seen writings both pro and con for using a filler with 2400. In the past I used a half cotton ball in my .405 with Unique and a .41 cast boolit. I also used dacron but can’t stand the burnt plastic smell.

A 1/4 sheet of TP is certainly an economical fix (unless there’s another shortage)

You could use "used TP" but then people will think you're shooting Black Powder.

[Rick R]

You could use "used TP" but then people will think you're shooting Black Powder.

I’ll pass on that cost saver.

I can get decent groups at 50 yards with 2400 but wasn’t happy at 100 yards probably due to inconsistent ignition. Switched to the starting load of Varget for 400gr boolits in Trapdoor level loads and got holes nearly touching at 50 and sub 2” at 100 using the Federal brass in my Katahdin Encore. My fillings are still in place, the reloading manual shows just under 1,400fps which should be good for eastern whitetail deer.

I believe the Federal brass is going to have a good home in the little TC while I keep the more fire breathing loads in Starline brass. Now to ponder more upon the Hornady stuff.

Thanks for all the good input guys!

[oldbear1950]

I have a Henry 45-70 lever, and even though have never micked it, it sure looks like a Marlin. And the new ones with the loading gate definitely look like Marlins. The Henry company told me it would take the same loads as the Marlin.
I have fired some and they seem to feed every bit like he old 1895 I used to have. I have some 300 and 350 grain hornady bullets. I need to do some loading.
Have any of you fired Matts, or Missouri, or acme bulltets in your lever guns. I have not

[Rick R]

I used whatever brand the local gun shop had on the shelf back in the day. The bulk packed bullets are ok for moderate “cowboy” or trapdoor loads. Usually. Try to push them too hard and you’ll be cleaning leading out of your bore. I also bought more expensive boutique boolits and they were pretty darned good but I started casting my own 16+ years ago and haven’t looked back.

[oldbear1950]

Have to check out the starline brass. I did not know they made 45-70 brass. My brother who passed away at the end of March, always said starline was as close as you could bet to match brass, without paying a really high price. I have some in 45 colt I like really well.

[robg]

the toilet paper is turned to ash so no wad to cause problems. no plastic smell either.