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Thread: 30 Super Carry with Hand Loaded Cast Boolits

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooting on a shoestring View Post
    Does anyone know what kind of actions they have?
    Browning
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooting on a shoestring View Post
    I have no experience with 7.62x25 in either Tok, Mauser or Borchardt.
    Just looking at Lyman’s 50th Edition at the 30 Luger data and 7.62 Tokarev/30 Mauser data it looks like the top end in published data is an 85 grain boolit at 1400 fps.

    I don’t have an 85 grain 32 caliber mold…yet.
    I’m contemplating buying one just to see if I could get it to 1400 in 30 SC.
    I’ve got a Accurate 31-070C, 31-088W and I think a 31-105A.

    But I could just use the 31-088W and see how fast that one goes. It wouldn’t cost anything but a little loading. I’m pretty sure I have some cast.

    As per Pettypace’s point that doesn’t address boolit shape, it only address velocity. But I could do that pretty cheap and maybe in the near future.

    I guess the only way to really race them would be for me to buy a 7.62x25 gun, dies and brass. But the Norinco Type 54 and CZ M52 look….ummmm….ugly (Ha! So does the Shield EZ). They seem to be pretty big and heavy too. But I have only seen them in pictures and videos. Might be better in real life. But I haven’t seen any in my usual haunts.

    Does anyone know what kind of actions they have? Straight blow back? Tilting barrel? Something else? Are they DA only? What kind of trigger pull do they have? Are they tack drivers or just bullet squirters?
    The CZ 52 is a cam roller locking action. I think the gun is nice looking. It is not a tack driver but it is better than most military issue sidearms. The action is quite strong. I think it could push any bullet faster than the 30 SC. I have one chambered for 9 x 23 with a heavy recoil spring. It out powers 9mm +P. Yeah, it only holds 8 rounds.

    Single action with a thumb safety and exposed hammer. Manual of arms is similar to a 1911 but no grip safety and the safety will safely drop the hammer if selected.
    Last edited by dtknowles; 08-11-2022 at 01:52 AM.
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  3. #43
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    Interesting thread. I am too far down the 9mm path to ever change platforms or calibers. If I did change it would be to the .40 anyway.
    Don Verna


  4. #44
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    DTK, thanks. That little bit helped me be a little bit smarter.
    I’ve never heard of a cam roller locking action. Sounds interesting.

    9x23 doesn’t need more than 8 rounds…
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  5. #45
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    DV, i can’t argue with your position.

    My first center fire reciprocating pistol was a High Power. 9mm of course. That gun showed me that not all reciprocators were evil. It was soon followed by an XD in 40. Then a lot of other calibers got added. The last being 30 Super Carry.

    I’m enjoying the 30SC and I consider it a keeper. But I’m not preaching it to be a replacement for 9. And I’d prefer 40 over it or 9 for a one and only gun. But I like 10 better than all 3 of those.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooting on a shoestring View Post
    DTK, thanks. That little bit helped me be a little bit smarter.
    I’ve never heard of a cam roller locking action. Sounds interesting.

    9x23 doesn’t need more than 8 rounds…
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6758&FORM=VIRE
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  7. #47
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    DTK,
    Thank you Sir!
    Very good video.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  8. #48
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    The CZ 52 is a cam roller locking action. I think the gun is nice looking. It is not a tack driver but it is better than most military issue sidearms. The action is quite strong. I think it could push any bullet faster than the 30 SC. I have one chambered for 9 x 23 with a heavy recoil spring. It out powers 9mm +P. Yeah, it only holds 8 rounds.
    Single action with a thumb safety and exposed hammer. Manual of arms is similar to a 1911 but no grip safety and the safety will safely drop the hammer if selected.
    The LOCKING action of the Cz52 is quite strong, but there is one area of the chamber, forward of the lugs, where the chamber wall is quite thin. Reloaders can, and have, blow(n) out this thin part, with injudicious loading. Apparently, this failure has occurred in the same place often enough that it is believed by many that the TT-33 pistol is actually the stronger of the two pistols.
    Back when Reloadersnest.com was functioning, some brave soul was stoking the 7.62x25 mm with H110, under 90 gr. JHPs, and getting velocities approaching that of the .30 Carbine(!!!). I do not recall the charge weights, but it was one of the few times in which I saw H110 reduced by more than 3% below max with no reported difficulty.
    The hammer drop safety will safely drop the hammer if selected, ASSUMING THAT THE PARTS IN THE DECOCKING MECHANISM IS NEW/STILL IN SPEC. Using the hammer drop safety on a pistol in which these parts are moderately worn can result in an unintentional discharge. Ask me how I know.

    Beyond this, I DO agree that the 7.62x25 mm can probably out perform the .30 SC, and in less expensive platforms. The .30 SC may beat the 7.62x25 mm in terms of accuracy, but this is a function of a newer platform out-performing an older, more worn one. Things can be done to the CZ52 and the TT-33 to tighten groups.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
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    Carpe SCOTCH!

  9. #49
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    Yeah, agreed. You can check the hammer drop. Just try it without a round in the chamber. The hammer should stop short of the firing pin. Watch a dry fire where you pull the trigger and then watch a hammer drop with the safety, they should be noticeably different.

    It should be noted that CZ 52's are market to indicate how many times they have been back to the armory for service and maintence.

    This site explains it better that I would.

    https://harringtonproducts.com/markings.php

    Tim

    Tim
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  10. #50
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    I have owned three CZ-52's, I sold one (I should have kept it) because I thought it was silly to have three of the same gun. I have 4 barrels for the two I have still, a 9x19, a 9x23 and two 7.62x25 barrels. I have spare firing pins, they do break. I have three different strength wolf recoil springs along with the two stock springs. I have never had a problem with any load functioning with any of the springs but I use the heavy springs with the heavy bullets in 9 mm to reduce the stress on the gun. Beside the "weak" point on the barrel/chamber the rollers and cam do wear and should be lube for longer life along with the heavy springs.

    Yes, the Tok might be able to take higher pressures but the CZ can take much higher pressures than any publish loading data or even that from the commy submachine gun ammo.

    I don't have to run high pressures to get the 1400 fps with 125 gr. JHPs in my 9 x 23 because I use 9 mm largo brass and load to a longer over all length allowed by the longer magazine. I have almost as much room for powder as a 357 mag.

    To understand what a stand out gun this is compare it to a S&W M19. Same ballistics, 4 ounces lighter, single action first shot and every shot, holds three more rounds, is much thinner, holds up better for more full house loads. It is also thinner than a 1911 and lighter as well.

    Of course some people prefer the modern triggers and manual of arms on guns like the Shield. That is all about what you train with.

    Tim
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  11. #51
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    Kosh, DTK,
    Thanks for the posts. Good information.
    I can see why the CZ M52 pistol and 7.62x25 have a following.

    I really appreciate the S&W Model 19 comparison. I’ve had a Model 19 since I was a kid and I’m very familiar with it. I doubt I’ll see a CZ M52 finished as nicely, and I’ll bet the Model 19 SA trigger is better. While I won’t be giving up my Model 19, I just might have to keep an eye out for an example of the CZ M52. Sounds like a fun gun.

    I’m curious though. Does anyone shoot cast boolits in the CZ M52?
    Can they feed a boolit with some meplat?
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  12. #52
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    The CZ 52 feeds almost anything. It has two things in its favor one with 7.62 x 25 it is a bottle neck round so the whole front of the cartridge is tapered and you can only have so much meplat on a 32. Also since the recoil spring is around the barrel not under it and the barrel only moves front to back not tilting or up and down rounds feed straight into the chamber and don't have to rise much at all. I bet it would feed full wadcutters but I have not tried. I have not had any problems with 60 gr. Gold Dot hollow points. Not really a good self-defence round but those move out at 1700+ fps and will explode varmints. I have also loaded many flat nose and hollow points in the 9 x 23 with no feeding problems. I will try to post pictures of ammo.

    I was not putting the M-19 down, it is a very fine gun for what it is. I do prefer my Dan Wesson M-15's but that is a totally different story. I shoot my revolvers a lot more than semi-auto's. You know the brass chasing thing and such.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

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  13. #53
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pettypace View Post
    That depends on just what you mean by "juice."

    A lowly target wadcutter fired from a .38 snubby into bare 10% ordnance gelatin will "rivet" to 0.39" diameter and penetrate to 16". (See, for instance, brassfetcher's test data here).

    With 10 grains more bullet weight, 150 f/s more velocity, and the right alloy, we should be able to get a .38 wadcutter to "rivet" to 0.40" and penetrate to 18" in bare gelatin without straining a snubby.

    So, how would that compare to a 117 grain bullet from a .30 carry that expands to 0.40" and penetrates 18" in bare gelatin?

    Here's the .38 from the snubby:



    And here's the .30 carry wadcutter:



    With almost twice the muzzle energy, the .30 carry would likely have an advantage against barriers like windshield glass. But in the absence of barriers I would expect the two rounds, with equal penetration and equal wound mass, to be functionally equivalent.
    I enjoy your model and its predictions but I have to admit I am confused by a few things. Why does an 18" penetrating bullet not count the whole wound path as defensive wound mass? 18" penetration is not likely to exit. Less than 20% of 18" gel shots will exit humans per FBI data. That data was gathered in the late 80s and American's BMI has gone up significantly since then, making 18" even less likely to exit. I would understand if a bullet penetrated 30" and your model put the big game wound mass at a larger number than the defensive would mass.

    Also your model is missing a real world component of damage. Two bullets with a 40 cal meplat, but 400 fps difference in impact velocity and 200% difference in energy will have significant difference in would volume. Check out Veral Smith's book where he has the charts with meplat vs impact velocity. Here is some of his data in this link. https://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/...s/methods.html

    The flat nose creates a bow wave in flesh/gel/water. The faster a given meplat impacts, the larger the wound. The high pressure flesh squirting away from the meplat acts like a 360 degree pressure washer, cutting flesh a certain distance away from the meplat. The faster a given bullet, the further away it will cut flesh with its bow wave. It seems like your model only uses expanded diameter and total penetration depth but doesn't account for impact energy. Two bullets with the same expanded diameter and same penetration can have dramatically different wounds when the energy is significantly different. Two bullets with the same expanded diameter and same penetration will have virtually identical wounds when energy is nearly equal.

    A faster 1200 fps 40 cal meplat will undoubtably have a larger wound than an 800 fps, equal size meplat. I have seen it in gel and many deer.

    A .34 meplat at 800 fps will make a half inch wide wound in gel or animals. A .28 cal meplat at 1000 fps will also make a half inch wide wound. It appears that your model would put these at different wound volumes if they had equal penetration.

    Another example: take a .34 meplat a 800 fps and you get a half inch wide wound. Take that same .34 meplat and shoot it at 1200 fps and the wound is 1.125" wide now. The difference in total wound volume would increase about 5x. A half inch wound that is 18" long has 3.5 cubic inches of damaged tissue. A 1.125 inch wound that is 18" long has 17.7 cubic inches of damaged tissue. Of course in the real world wounds are larger at the beginning and smaller at the end but in this example we used a parallell cylinder to get our volume measurements.

    In the first 6" of a gel block I guarantee the 30SC load from above would have at least twice the wound volume of the WC, then the last 12" would look similar to the 38 WC. There would be a much wider wound in the first 6" where the 30 SC is dumping its energy from the 40 cal meplat at 1200 fps. We would definitely see that the maximum width of the wound is larger with the SC. I would predict to see at least a few inches of the gel block near the beginning with tears extending to 1.5 inch wide from the SC load. The maximum wound width seen from the 38 WC would probably not exceed .75 inch at its widest.
    Last edited by mnewcomb59; 08-15-2022 at 07:42 AM.

  15. #55
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    Finally got around to shooting the hollow point experiment.
    I loaded my maximum velocity load of AA#7. Same powder charge and seating depth for all 4 boolits. Only difference was the weight from the hollow points being drilled. If I recall correctly the hollow point depths were 3/16” deep. The 1/4” cup point was drilled until the drill cut full diameter.
    The boolits were shot into a row of 1 gallon water jugs placed back to back.
    5 shots were fired across the chronograph and the 6th shot was fired into the water jugs for penetration and expansion.

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    The boolits were Accurate 31-117 cast 97%Pb, 1%Sb, 2%Sn aged approximately 3 weeks.

    The no-drilled boolit 1276 fps, sdev 8, stopped in 5th jug, expanded diameter 0.480” x 0.510”.
    1/8” hollow point 1290 fps, sdev 5, stopped in 3 jug, expanded diameter 0.520” x 0.620” almost broke apart.
    3/16” hollow point 1311 fps, sdev 5, stopped in 3 jug but dented the front wall of the 4th, expanded diameter 0.495” x 0.535”.
    1/4” cup point 1283 fps, sdev 8, stopped in 3 rd jug but ruptured the front wall of the 4th, expanded diameter 0.535” x 0.560”.

    I haven’t been near my balance to check retained weights yet. The hollow points might have lost a little weight.

    All of the loads exploded the first jugs like balloons. The second jugs all looked similar and had large rips. The third jugs had rupture lines around the entrance holes. The no-drill boolit passed through the 4 jug with very little tearing and the entrance into the 5th jug was a simple hole.

    My conclusion is the hollow points definitely stopped quicker, the cup point did good but I don’t think there is enough difference for me to bother with drilling. I’ll just use them as cast and be happy with 4-5 jugs penetration and the exploded 1st jug.

    At the end of the jug experiment I had some jugs leftover. So I fired a shot from my 327 LCR using the same boolit. It expanded to a pretty consistently round 0.420”. It was cast 96%Pb, 2%Sb, 2%Sn and aged probably 2 months. I didn’t chronograph that load but I think it’s velocity is about 1300 fps.
    Last edited by shooting on a shoestring; 08-16-2022 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Opps
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnewcomb59 View Post
    I enjoy your model and its predictions but I have to admit I am confused by a few things. Why does an 18" penetrating bullet not count the whole wound path as defensive wound mass? 18" penetration is not likely to exit. Less than 20% of 18" gel shots will exit humans per FBI data. That data was gathered in the late 80s and American's BMI has gone up significantly since then, making 18" even less likely to exit. I would understand if a bullet penetrated 30" and your model put the big game wound mass at a larger number than the defensive would mass.
    The VIRGEL app is based on Duncan MacPherson's book Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma. I tried to make VIRGEL as faithful to MacPherson's work as I could. For example, my decision to not count penetration beyond 15" in calculating "Defense Wound Mass" was based on these quotes from MacPherson:

    The wound trauma model for purposes of WTI assessment is the effective mass of the tissue crushed in the permanent wound cavity at penetration depths less than 15 inches. (page 276).

    Penetration depths greater than 15 inches are not rewarded because these penetration depths are almost always beyond the vital structures in the target body. (page 278).

    I bet there'd be some interest in discussing the role of the meplat and bullet energy as wounding mechanisms. But that would likely send this thread wildly off course. Perhaps you'd consider starting a new thread with the info contained in your previous post?
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnewcomb59 View Post

    Another example: take a .34 meplat a 800 fps and you get a half inch wide wound. Take that same .34 meplat and shoot it at 1200 fps and the wound is 1.125" wide now. The difference in total wound volume would increase about 5x. A half inch wound that is 18" long has 3.5 cubic inches of damaged tissue. A 1.125 inch wound that is 18" long has 17.7 cubic inches of damaged tissue. Of course in the real world wounds are larger at the beginning and smaller at the end but in this example we used a parallell cylinder to get our volume measurements.
    This suggests that SOS's 117 grain WC shot at 1200 f/s and "riveting" to a flat-nosed 0.34" diameter meplat would produce a wound volume in excess of 15 cubic inches. That's about ten times the volume suggested by MacPherson's WTI model shown below:



    In fact, the 15 cubic inch wound volume suggested by the "meplat model" for the 30 SC is more than the volume of the permanent cavity of the 12 gauge rifled slug (about 13 cubic inches) shown in Fackler's wound profile below:



    Obviously, no amount of meplat will put the wound volume from a 30SC (or any other service-sized handgun, for that matter) in the same league as the 12 gauge slug. For example, if you squint hard enough at the data table on this page, you can see that the wound volumes calculated by the FBI for a variety of handgun cartridges under consideration seldom exceeded 4 cubic inches even for high performance .45 and 10mm cardridges while the best .357 and 9mm JHP's seldom exceeded 3 cubic inches.
    Last edited by pettypace; 08-18-2022 at 02:23 PM.
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth. --George Orwell

  18. #58
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    Pettypace,
    I’m loving the performance from 30SC.
    But…..yep I’ll confirm.
    It’s not in the same league as a 12 gauge slug.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  19. #59
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    Just took in a Shield Plus in 30 SC with a Holosun 507K(X2) arriving Friday.

    Am I bored with 9mm everything and want to try something different? Yes.

    Will see if the combination will let me warm up to microcompacts. Or at least let me shoot them better and closer to what my favored compacts do (2.0 3.6s with Leupold Delta Point Pro Micros in 9 and 40).

  20. #60
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    Still waiting for pressure-tested data from Hodgdon and Alliant. Might be along wait. Factory loaded ammo is more profitable for them.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check