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Thread: 30 Super Carry with Hand Loaded Cast Boolits

  1. #21
    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
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    You know? I can't think of a cartridge I hate, just don't need another one to reload.
    This cartridge to me sounds like a .40 S& W only in .30 carbine.
    Hey, nothing wrong with that.
    7.65 French Long? I bet it is pretty close.
    I wonder if the new 30 super would work in the old French pistols?
    I haven't researched anything, just musing.
    Just the same old BS I'm renowned for.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmacgyver0 View Post
    You know? I can't think of a cartridge I hate, just don't need another one to reload.
    This cartridge to me sounds like a .40 S& W only in .30 carbine.
    Hey, nothing wrong with that.
    7.65 French Long? I bet it is pretty close.
    I wonder if the new 30 super would work in the old French pistols?
    I haven't researched anything, just musing.
    Just the same old BS I'm renowned for.
    Well the first problem is that the 30 SC has 50,000 psi chamber pressure. The 7.65 French Long isn't loaded to that kind of chamber pressures. You run the risk of blowing the old guns up.

    The 7,65 Longue was loaded with 77 grain or 80 grain bullets and had muzzle velocities around 1160 fps. But although those velocities are close to the 30SC, the 30 SC is loaded with 100 grain or 110 grain or 115 grain bullets. The 30SC runs around 1250 fps with the 100 grain bullets and 1150 with the 115 grain bullets.

    But it sure looks like one could use the brass cases and reload those for the 7.65 Longue. That is what a number of folks are intending to do. You can use .32 ACP bullets. Plus if you have a .30 Pederson device, you could reload the cases to use in the conversions too. Now you could pull the bullets and pour out the propellant then reload and reuse the bullets with a different propellant for using in the 7.65 Longue.

    But definitely you do not want to fire the super hot loaded 30 SC in a old 7.65 Longue handgun or Perderson device. You run the risk of it blowing up in your face.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    I did get a chance to empty my brass and get some more chronograph data.

    I worked up A little farther with my AA#5 type powder and got to 6.0 grains with the 117 wadcutter. Velocity average was 1219 fps at 90 degrees F. That 1219 had a standard deviation of 6. Extreme spread 1323-1210=13. The case did show 0.001” expansion over previous firings so I’m stopping here and calling this my max load for my boolit in my gun.

    Using the same boolit but with canister AA#7, I worked up to 7.5 grains and hit the 0.001” case expansion over previous readings. So this is my max for AA#7. The charge filled the case to the boolit base and may have had a tiny bit of compression. Velocity average was 1283, sdev 15, es 1295-1261=34fps.

    I also made a first try with another boolit. I used Accurate 31-070C. I used a COL of 1.090”. 6.0 grains of my AA5 type powder gave velocity of 1297fps, sdev 16, es 1318-1279=39 fps. No case expansion over previous readings. This little light weight boolit has some more room to run in velocity.

    Now I have some empty cases and I’ll try to get some loaded soon, drill some hollow points, or cup points as PettyPace suggested.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  4. #24
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    Before I had HP molds I made a quick and dirty hollow point jig to use with a pocket knife.

    You drill a hole slightly bigger than your case in a half inch thick piece of wood (mine is 1.5x12" but not super critical) 11/32 would probably work for the 30 cal.

    This hole holds your loaded round upright. Your right forearm rests on the block of wood so it can't tip and you hold a knife centered on the meplat. Your left hand rotates the loaded round like a lathe. I did a few without the jig and the round tipped and I stabbeb my table. Thankfully not my finger. I made hundreds of HP like this and it is easy to be consistent.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Ok I have some of the 117 gr wadcutters loaded over 5.7 gr of my AA5 type powder.
    I used a little jig in my drill press to hollow point or cup point a few.
    I’ve used this sort of jig with good success before.
    In this case it’s an 11/32” hole drilled through a board. Then I saw through the board to intersect the hole and leave a semi-circle. I use thumb pressure to hole the loaded round in the semi-circle.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And I’ve used 1/8”, 3/16” and 1/4” bits to make some hollow points approximately 1/8” deep. Although on the 1/4” I just drilled until the bit made a full diameter cut and stopped. The result is a wide cup point.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have 6 loads each of 1/8”, 3/16”, 1/4” and flat unmodified. I’ll use 5 for chronographing and 1 for water jugs.
    Not sure if I’ll get to run them this weekend, but soon as I do I’ll post up.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  6. #26
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    Mnewcomb59, I like the way you think. I really appreciate your ability to make it work with what you got. Hollow points by pocket knife is the result of thinking, trying and doing. That’s real American ingenuity in action.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  7. #27
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    If you are only doing a few it is probably quicker than setting up the drill press. Also you can visually center the HP when you do it by hand. Sometimes I have had them off-center when using a drill press jig. Glad you liked the idea!

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    SOSS; be real careful with those loads you’re using. (Aa#5 & #7).

    Using 90,93, and 100gr bullets @.311” and .314”, I was running into cratered primers at 5.6gr #5 and 6.6gr of #7. My velocities are running a bit lower too.
    You didn’t state what diameter your wadcutters were. Maybe .314” ???

    My gun did feed and fire the one NOE 89gr wadcutter, but I seated it out to a longer OAL.

    re: 7.5 French; aka 7.5x20:
    No, you can’t fire the .30SC in the 7.5. Too long (21mm vs 20mm).
    Yes, you “might” can fire the 7.5 in the .30SC, but it likely won’t cycle the action.

    The .30SC (in my Sheild EZ) needed approximately 90% of max to eject, cock, and feed the next round without a stovepipe jam. Approximately 1,100fps with a Lee 93gr .311” RN @ .314” (modified molds).
    A .32acp w/78gr RN wouldn’t unlock the action... Don’t ask how I know!!! Had to be hand fed and hand cleared...
    Ammo -Federal (100gr FMJ) is down to 42cents, 7.5x20 brass is .27cents from Starline. I’ll just source brass from loaded ammo...

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Goose, I sized at 0.316”. Yep really. 0.316”. I got the mold for 327 and 32-20 revolvers that have throats at 0.315”. I was totally surprised they work so well in the 30 Super Carry.

    Now the 30SC is at 50,000 psi cartridge. 50k psi will flatten, flow, crater and ooze small pistol primers. I doubt I’ve hit the full 50k yet, but I’m thinking I’ve gone well past 40k.

    The brass is holding up, so when I get back to working loads for it I may switch from S&B small pistol primers to Rem 5&1/2’s. And I may work with small rifle primers.

    I view the 30SC as a cartridge to run at high pressure and high performance. Otherwise, I’d shoot 32acp…which I have a couple of and enjoy.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    SOSS
    I’m with you! I’m loading to light cratering with Fiocchi primers. Got a bunch at a real good price. Saving my Federal and Winchester for my revolvers. The Fiocchi seem a bit soft.

    I too use CCI Small Rifle Primers in full power .327Mag. It’s such a serious over performer! I load the Hornady 100gr XTP and Lee 113gr RFNGC warm, but not to point of cases sticking! Mostly #2400 with the cast and H110 with the jacketed.

    Keep up posting on the .30SC!

    Despite the naysayers, I feel going forward it’ll pick up steam if enough manufacturers make compact guns for it.
    I don’t see it replacing the 9mmPara, but new sales of the .32acp and .380 are in peril. Especially if cost of ammo continues to drop.
    Wow! I remember when they were saying the same things about the 9mm vs .357mag.

  11. #31
    Boolit Mold
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    Excellent information! I note that factory bullets are 0.313". Factory fired brass (Remington 100 JHP, Federal 100 FMJ and 100 HST) from my Shield EZ is fairly well flattened, and slightly craters about 50% of the time. Don't know exactly what primer is being used in those loads.

    I also was skeptical of this cartridge when introduced, but the pistol/cartridge combination does offer the benefits of lighter recoil, higher capacity and roughly equivalent power to a similar 9mm pistol. The pistol has some good points: flat, good trigger, lightweight, good capacity and easy to operate compared to striker fired guns.

    However, a couple of caveats concerned me recently. I originally obtained one with no manual safety, but after reviewing the design of the pistol, I sold it and bought the manual safety version. (Retrofit is not a factory option). There are two passive safety devices on the EZ: the firing pin block and the trigger bar interrupter. In a nutshell, BOTH are controlled by the grip safety. It's been misstated in at least one review of the pistol in a major publication that the trigger disengages the firing pin block - not true. (Typical lazy gun writing shills).

    In most pistols that incorporate a passive firing pin block, disengagement is controlled by the trigger action against the trigger bar, which in turn deactivates the firing pin block. Not on the Shield EZ: in the concept of the 1911 Schwartz safety, the grip safety deactivates the firing pin block. Depressing the grip safety engages the trigger bar with the sear, and also deactivates the firing pin block. While this is adequate in regards to the safety of the pistol if dropped - it won't fire - it's problematic in terms of carrying the pistol.

    In terms of concealed carry and holstering the pistol, I wasn't comfortable with it. While holstering, the grip safety is being depressed. This is akin to holstering a cocked-and-UNlocked 1911 - it can be done in an emergency but it's not everyday SOP. The trigger pull is relatively light and short, and anything that might come into contact with the trigger has a good chance of firing the pistol - piece of shirttail, top edge of the holster, adjustment cord on a jacket, etc. In a stressful encounter, or even an extended range session, it's possible, and I've seen it happen on the range (with different pistols).

    The manual safety version of the Shield EZ disconnects the trigger bar when the thumb safety engaged, so in my view it's safer for carry and holstering. In practical effect, it operates like a 1911, albeit without locking the slide closed. (The EZ thumb safety does not appear to actually block the sear, either.)

    Second, an acquaintance recently purchased a 9mm Shield EZ, and after only 75 rounds the breechblock failed. See attached pics. This is not the only instance of this. On a well-known S&W forum an even more catastrophic breechblock failure of a 9mm Shield EZ is shown. The .30 Super Carry and 9mm versions are essentially identical. Both use a MIM "Slide Insert" aka breechblock, pinned into what appears to be a cast slide. I'm not starting a MIM vs. Anything Else debate, but the failure of a major structure of the pistol is nonetheless disconcerting. We're not talking about a little pin or piece with no stress-bearing function.

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    Rant On. S&W continues its race to the bottom with Ruger. Rant Off.
    Last edited by Kuduking; 07-29-2022 at 01:57 PM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Kuduking, great post!

    I get your view of carry with the manual safety on this gun.
    My preference was for the no thumb safety model. I agree with what you point out that re-holstering with a grip safety only model does elevate the possibility of an unplanned eruption.

    I mitigate that by 2 things. First I find it possible to reposition my grip on the pistol before re-holstering to allow the grip safety to disengage. This is not a sure thing and leaves the door open for Murphy. Second I didn’t buy this reciprocating pistol as a carry piece. I have better built, better handling, safer guns that I have much more confidence in for my carry guns. I bought this S&W EZ because it was the only pistol available for me to play with the cartridge. The $4k Nighthawk was not in my budget to play with.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    I feel like I dropped the ball on reporting my hollow point experiment…probably because I did. Ha!

    A few things came up and I was not able to do the chronographing at the same time I shot the jugs for penetration. So I went ahead and shot the jugs first but didn’t have my usual measuring tools with me. I lost one of the recovered boolits before I got back home and measured the expanded diameters. Furthermore I mixed up two boolits and couldn’t be sure which loads they came from. So I screwed that up. Going to have to repeat the experiment.

    I’ll say that I was not impressed with any of the hollow point wadcutters. There was some difference in the jugs but not enough to make me think it worth the effort to hollow point the boolits. That wadcutter just works!

    Also, I shot a control boolit that was age hardened several weeks and it’s expansion was less than the .430” or so inches I got initially, but I didn’t get it measured. Still, it expanded and went into the 5th jug. I’m happy with that.

    Hoping I can get back to this in a few weeks.
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy
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    I predicted 5 jugs and 40 cal after a few weeks of age hardening. That is probably even better than before because that will get you close to 18" gel penetration. Definitely more juice than a 38 special.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnewcomb59 View Post
    I predicted 5 jugs and 40 cal after a few weeks of age hardening. That is probably even better than before because that will get you close to 18" gel penetration. Definitely more juice than a 38 special.
    That depends on just what you mean by "juice."

    A lowly target wadcutter fired from a .38 snubby into bare 10% ordnance gelatin will "rivet" to 0.39" diameter and penetrate to 16". (See, for instance, brassfetcher's test data here).

    With 10 grains more bullet weight, 150 f/s more velocity, and the right alloy, we should be able to get a .38 wadcutter to "rivet" to 0.40" and penetrate to 18" in bare gelatin without straining a snubby.

    So, how would that compare to a 117 grain bullet from a .30 carry that expands to 0.40" and penetrates 18" in bare gelatin?

    Here's the .38 from the snubby:



    And here's the .30 carry wadcutter:



    With almost twice the muzzle energy, the .30 carry would likely have an advantage against barriers like windshield glass. But in the absence of barriers I would expect the two rounds, with equal penetration and equal wound mass, to be functionally equivalent.
    Last edited by pettypace; 08-08-2022 at 09:08 PM.
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    I think I'll stick with 7.62x25 in either my Tok or C52. I think I can get equal or better performance with it.

  17. #37
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    rbuck351,
    Let’s race! Let’s find out.

    I looked up the case capacity from wiki for 7.62x25 and see it’s given as 16.8 grains of water.
    I just weighed by difference empty and full and found my 30 Super Carry fired brass holds 13.0 grains of water.
    So 7.65x25 has 3.8 grains of water more case capacity over 30 SC. Which 3.8/13 times 100 = 29.2% more case capacity than 30 SC.

    30 SC has SAAMI pressure limit of 50,000 psi.
    7.62x25 has CIP pressure limit of 2500 Bar which is 36,259 psi.
    30 SC has 13,741 psi more pressure to work with than 7.62x25.
    So 36,259/50,000 times 100 = 72.5%.
    7.56x25 has only 72.5% as much pressure to work with.

    So it looks to me like 7.65x25 has nearly a 30% advantage in case capacity and 30 Super Carry has nearly a 30% advantage in pressure.

    I’m going to guess that’s pretty much a wash. I’ll bet there’s not a discernible difference in real world ballistic performance between the two running flat out. But I’d like to know…
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    I think I'll stick with 7.62x25 in either my Tok or C52. I think I can get equal or better performance with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by shooting on a shoestring View Post
    rbuck351,
    Let’s race! Let’s find out.

    I looked up the case capacity from wiki for 7.62x25 and see it’s given as 16.8 grains of water.
    I just weighed by difference empty and full and found my 30 Super Carry fired brass holds 13.0 grains of water.
    So 7.65x25 has 3.8 grains of water more case capacity over 30 SC. Which 3.8/13 times 100 = 29.2% more case capacity than 30 SC.

    30 SC has SAAMI pressure limit of 50,000 psi.
    7.62x25 has CIP pressure limit of 2500 Bar which is 36,259 psi.
    30 SC has 13,741 psi more pressure to work with than 7.62x25.
    So 36,259/50,000 times 100 = 72.5%.
    7.56x25 has only 72.5% as much pressure to work with.

    So it looks to me like 7.65x25 has nearly a 30% advantage in case capacity and 30 Super Carry has nearly a 30% advantage in pressure.

    I’m going to guess that’s pretty much a wash. I’ll bet there’s not a discernible difference in real world ballistic performance between the two running flat out. But I’d like to know…

    But what about the bullet? If "real world ballistic performance" includes wound ballistics, the role of the bullet is critical. For example, in his wound profile for the 7.62x39 cartridge (using steel core bullets from an AK-47) Fackler noted:

    In most wounds of the abdomen, they caused a small punctate hole much like one would expect from a 25 or 32 ACP FMJ handgun bullet fired at less than 1000 ft/sec., or a single pellet of 00 buckshot. A lot of US servicemen owe their lives to the minimal wounds caused by these bullets. (Wound Ballistic Review, Vol. 5, No. 2, page 37.)
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooting on a shoestring View Post
    rbuck351,
    Let’s race! Let’s find out.

    I looked up the case capacity from wiki for 7.62x25 and see it’s given as 16.8 grains of water.
    I just weighed by difference empty and full and found my 30 Super Carry fired brass holds 13.0 grains of water.
    So 7.65x25 has 3.8 grains of water more case capacity over 30 SC. Which 3.8/13 times 100 = 29.2% more case capacity than 30 SC.

    30 SC has SAAMI pressure limit of 50,000 psi.
    7.62x25 has CIP pressure limit of 2500 Bar which is 36,259 psi.
    30 SC has 13,741 psi more pressure to work with than 7.62x25.
    So 36,259/50,000 times 100 = 72.5%.
    7.56x25 has only 72.5% as much pressure to work with.

    So it looks to me like 7.65x25 has nearly a 30% advantage in case capacity and 30 Super Carry has nearly a 30% advantage in pressure.

    I’m going to guess that’s pretty much a wash. I’ll bet there’s not a discernible difference in real world ballistic performance between the two running flat out. But I’d like to know…
    I am pretty sure the 7.62 x 25 will have more power than the 30 SC but that was not the point of the new guns and cartridge it was to match 9 x 19 performance with the same size gun and have 2 more rounds in the magazine. 7.62 x 25 uses a 90 gr. bullet at 1500 fps vs. the 30 SC a 100 gr. bullet at 1250 fps. I am sure you could get more than 1250 with a 100 gr. bullet from the 7.62 x 25 but the ammo is even larger than 9 x 19 so you sacrifice magazine capacity. The 327 mag. also beats the 30 SC in power with a 115 gr. bullet at 1335 fps from a 3" barrel. How small a pistol do you want to carry and how many rounds do you want it to hold.

    TEK
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  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    I have no experience with 7.62x25 in either Tok, Mauser or Borchardt.
    Just looking at Lyman’s 50th Edition at the 30 Luger data and 7.62 Tokarev/30 Mauser data it looks like the top end in published data is an 85 grain boolit at 1400 fps.

    I don’t have an 85 grain 32 caliber mold…yet.
    I’m contemplating buying one just to see if I could get it to 1400 in 30 SC.
    I’ve got a Accurate 31-070C, 31-088W and I think a 31-105A.

    But I could just use the 31-088W and see how fast that one goes. It wouldn’t cost anything but a little loading. I’m pretty sure I have some cast.

    As per Pettypace’s point that doesn’t address boolit shape, it only address velocity. But I could do that pretty cheap and maybe in the near future.

    I guess the only way to really race them would be for me to buy a 7.62x25 gun, dies and brass. But the Norinco Type 54 and CZ M52 look….ummmm….ugly (Ha! So does the Shield EZ). They seem to be pretty big and heavy too. But I have only seen them in pictures and videos. Might be better in real life. But I haven’t seen any in my usual haunts.

    Does anyone know what kind of actions they have? Straight blow back? Tilting barrel? Something else? Are they DA only? What kind of trigger pull do they have? Are they tack drivers or just bullet squirters?
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check