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Thread: Felt recoil S&W Mod 10 vs Ruger Blackhawk, Why the difference?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master corbinace's Avatar
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    Felt recoil S&W Mod 10 vs Ruger Blackhawk, Why the difference?

    I recently purchased an older Model 10 with a six-inch heavy slab sided barrel and sight rail built for PPC.

    When I shoot the same 148-grain wadcutter loads out of the revolvers I am surprised at the difference in felt recoil.

    The 40-ounce 7.5" stock-barreled Ruger is very mild to shoot compared to the 49-ounce nose-heavy Smith.

    The Ruger sports original stocks, while the Smith wears Herrett's

    Is it the grip angle?
    Is it the longer barrel of the Ruger that tames the recoil?

    The next thing is, why does this new gun not outshoot my decrepit Ruger's on a diet of 2.7GR of WST behind a #50 H&G wadcutter?

    And since everybody likes pictures, I will try to post one. STBY for the edit...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by corbinace; 05-21-2022 at 07:07 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I definitely go for the grip hypothesis.
    Not only the angle, but the bore axis vs. grip hold on the horizontal axis.

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    I can't think of a good explanation for the paradox you describe. Ordinarily I would attribute feeling more recoil with the M-10 due to the grip shape, as the Blackhawk has the traditional plow handle which makes such cartridges as the .44 Mag. tolerable. But in this case, having been around PPC guns for a long time, I would think that shooting standard 148 gr. wadcutters in a bull barrel revolver would not be much greater than the felt recoil from a .22 L.R. revolver. You could try some rubber grips on the M-10, but I have to wonder if there might not be some cylinder/ cylinder gap/ bore size problem. It just doesn't sound right, and I think I'd have a revolver smith look at the M-10.

    DG

  4. #4
    Boolit Master corbinace's Avatar
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    Der G.
    You could be on to something, I will try to take a picture of a concern.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It looks kind of like debris coming back from forcing cone.
    I did take a piece of white paper and put behind the area when firing from all six chambers with no signs, but it sure looks odd to me.
    Last edited by corbinace; 05-21-2022 at 07:20 PM. Reason: Typo fixed

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    A possibility worth looking into is that the cylinder is slightly out of time, or the forcing cone is deformed. One problem could certainly cause the other, as if the cylinder is a bit out of time then the bullet has to force the cylinder into alignment when fired and cram it's way into the forcing cone. You're going to feel a lot of recoil. The way to check this is with a range rod, but if the forcing cone is already deformed that won't tell the whole story. If the revolver is properly timed-, then the forcing cone might be repaired by judicious application of Brownell's forcing cone reamer. I think your problem is somewhere there, between timing and cone. One should remember that these PPC revolvers weren't factory production--they were modified on a one-by-one custom basis by several hundred gunsmiths and small businesses. They were used a lot, as proficient PPC shooters often fired 1,000+ practice rounds a week, and they do wear out and require maintenance. My last word, see a revolver smith...getting hard to find now days.

    DG

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    When I was shooting PPC matches on the Pistol Team, it was common to go through 1,500 rounds a week in practice, and then shoot two matches every other weekend. Since WC bullets are normally very soft, a lot of lead builds up in the forcing cone, and just in front of the forcing cone, inside the barrel. About every other week, I'd use a Lewis Lead Remover to remove the buildup in both the forcing cone and the barrel. It's surprising how much there can be.

    My go to load was 2.7 gr. of Bullseye under a 148 gr. HBWC bullet. Out of a Ransom Rest at 50 yards, my PPC gun would put 10 rounds into 1 7/8" consistently. That was using all 6 chambers.

    I'd check the lead buildup in the forcing cone and then work from there.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
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    https://gundigest.com/gun-reviews/do...-right-for-you

    Double actions tend to transfer all of their recoil straight back into the web of your hand, while single actions have a propensity to exhibit barrel rise and are designed to roll upward (particularly in the case of single actions equipped with “plow handle”-type grips).

    Generally I find this to be true. I have large hands so when you get to the full 44 Mag and above the smallish plow handle grips get uncomfortable to me. I have no problem with full house 44 Mag loads in my 29's and 629's. If I switch to Bisley grips frames on the single action that becomes the best for me to deal with heavy recoil.

    Quote Originally Posted by corbinace View Post
    Der G.
    You could be on to something, I will try to take a picture of a concern.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It looks kind of like debris coming back from forcing cone.
    I did take a piece of white paper and put behind the area when firing from all six chambers with no signs, but it sure looks odd to me.
    If that is in fact lead you do have a mechanical issue. I am having a hard time visualizing how you could get leading in that location.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-21-2022 at 09:20 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Different frame designs,, followed by different grip shapes. Basically, you are comparing apples to oranges here.

  9. #9
    Boolit Bub
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    Clean the lead out of it then get Pachmayr grips that fill in behind the grip frame hump then get some Zero or Bear Creek Supply HBWC bullets. I believe you will see a very different result.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Der G is onto something there.
    On my antique revolvers, I wrap the entire cylinder area with tissue paper when first firing them. It is amazing how much you can learn from the powder / lead / pressure venting patterns.
    After wrapping, I get more specific with paper close to the offending area (s) to help differentiate cylinder gap issues vs. timing or lock up discrepancies.

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  11. #11
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    I strongly suspect that the difference is in the "feeling" part of the felt recoil. Those grips don't fit your hand as well as the Ruger's do. Ill-fitting grips make shooting harder.
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    Apples to Oranges. A SA cowboy gun VS DA Combat gun.

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    Boolit Master MarkP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    https://gundigest.com/gun-reviews/do...-right-for-you

    Double actions tend to transfer all of their recoil straight back into the web of your hand, while single actions have a propensity to exhibit barrel rise and are designed to roll upward (particularly in the case of single actions equipped with “plow handle”-type grips).

    Generally I find this to be true. I have large hands so when you get to the full 44 Mag and above the smallish plow handle grips get uncomfortable to me. I have no problem with full house 44 Mag loads in my 29's and 629's. If I switch to Bisley grips frames on the single action that becomes the best for me to deal with heavy recoil.



    If that is in fact lead you do have a mechanical issue. I am having a hard time visualizing how you could get leading in that location.
    Same for me I have large hands especially in the palm area my Ruger SB 10.5" gets uncomfortable as compered to my Ruger RH 7.5" & S&W 58 with equivalent loads. The bottom of the SBH grip is in lower lower 1/3rd of my palm and bites hard in that area.

  14. #14
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    Plus, the longer barrel puts the weight out front instead of the hands making the recoil slightly less noticeable.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check