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Thread: Brass 410 shell with .395 round ball-- how to crimp??

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Brass 410 shell with .395 round ball-- how to crimp??

    Hi guys,

    I am making up some brass 410 shells out of 9.3x74r rifle brass. (These work great BTW.) I will be loading them with various payloads, but they will all be topped off with a .395" round ball crimped in place.

    Can someone tell me which flavor Lee Factory Crimp Die would be the right size for that job??

    Thanks a bunch. Been researching this for a bit with no luck. :~(

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


    Nueces's Avatar
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    If you plan to make these rounds regularly, I recommend sending a case and seated ball to Lee and have them make you a custom collet crimper. However, to start, Look into such a die for the 444 Marlin.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Yeah, I thought that one might possibly be an option. I've also written Lee Precision for advice on this.

    Thanks!
    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  4. #4
    Boolit Mold hondamikek's Avatar
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    I've got some 9.3x74R I was planning on using as well. Care to share how you went about fireforming them? Was planning on using some Red Dot, a fiber wad and then fill the rest up with cornmeal. Oh and regarding your initial query, I've had good luck using a dab from a hot glue gun to seal off various rounds over the years.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    I have a couple 410s both are choked to .389 at the muzzle . You may want to check yours if you haven't .

    I think you're going to want something closer to a 40/10 mm taper crimp only die with a sub .400 dia ball .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    I don’t know what the OD of your loaded shell is but I think if you had any sizing dies in the 243 - 358 size you could remove the neck sizing stem and the shoulder in the sizing die would make a hybrid taper/ roll crimp.
    You didn’t mention how many balls you were loading but I load 3 .395/.400 balls in 2 1/2 “ 410 hulls and in a 9.3 x 74 R you could load even more.
    I would think many other caliber dies would work for what you want to do as all you need is a die that will clear the OD of your case until it reaches the shoulder section and that will gently crimp the case mouth for ya.
    Maybe a die in the 25-06 to 35 Whalen ,anything on the 30-06 case would work .
    Jedman
    Last edited by Jedman; 05-16-2022 at 09:10 AM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    As far as blowing out the cases; pretty much as you've probably read. Around 10 to 12 grains of fast powder. I find corn cob, or better yet, crushed walnut media to work better than the softer Cream of Wheat or corn meal, though I've used those too. I prefer swedging some wax into the mouth to try to build a bit of pressure too, instead of the commonly touted "folds of tissue".

    If they are new shells, you are good to go. If they're fired cases, I suggest annealing first. Be sure to point the gun straight up when doing the fire forming. If you follow what I've said, they'll probably completely blow out in one firing. No biggie if not... A Harbor Freight mini chop saw is great for trimming to your desired length if necessary.

    I know the shoulder area of numerous sizing dies would likely make a roll crimp, and that would be fine if just crimping in an overshot card. In my case however, I'm hoping to find a collet type crimp, in order to kind of force the brass to dig into the round ball a bit, forming it's own crimp groove and holding the ball securely for use in a semi-auto. The Lee Factory Crimp Dies are purported to do just that, if I can figure that out...

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    I load a oddball round for a antique rifle that uses a cut down 45-70 case , the rim dia. turned smaller and a single .457 round ball loaded on top of black powder and a felt wad.
    If you can get your load collum to where the powder , wads, and ball(s) in the payload are slightly compressed and you have about .015 brass above the equator of the top ball the roll crimp from the shoulder of a size die works good to hold everything from moving. The sharper the shoulder angle the better.
    A collet style die would also work but will deform your ball with a ring squeezed into the diameter and that may not matter in your application ? I am shooting a true smoothbore rifle with no choke constriction.

    Jedman

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy

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    Did some a couple of years ago, used walnut media and had some low weight wad cutter cast boolits [73gr] that had some voids in them that just slid in the end of the case, shot out of an old 410 single shot, pointed almost straight up, one shot and they fireformed really well. Tried the tissue paper had to shoot and repeat 2 or 3 times before they would fireform. My testing range is out my back door so the boolits would land in my pasture. If using straight up fireforming using walnut media, safety glasses are recommended for the falling walnut media. Trimmed them to 2.850 oal, only had one out of 100 to crack and just trimmed it shorter. Still have not loaded any of them. Need to check my barrels for choke was planning on using rbs in a wad. Have 3 different 410 shotguns that can shoot three inch shells. Will use a ball end mill to cut the crimp die with for a conical crimp, using a lee powder through expander die.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    A 460 SW collet type crimp die should work it would need to be shimmed to length .

    You might look for something like a 40-65 seating die .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I think I might have found a die that will work. 400 Corbon. In dimensions, the round is like a super short 410 brass round. Body, rim, etc. are basically the same size as 410, and the mouth is very close to what I need for my .395 round ball.

    I find creating oddball stuff like this quite fun, and when it all works out, very rewarding. Being stubborn and creative necessary for these endeavors!

    Vettepilot
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 16528048521428952271709917145567.png  
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Jed an, what kind of load are we talkin’ with 3 balls? I have some 9.3x74 cases and some CBC 410 brass cases I shoot in a Contender but never thought about multiple ball loads(big buckshot) Tim

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I've found some time to play at this a little more. I got the Corbon sizing die. Now I need to cast up some .395 roundballs to see if it will crimp them in place.

    I'm working to create rounds that will work in my new AR-410 semi-auto. I'm tired of trying to find/pay for plastic hulls in 410. Thus the work on brass shells. I'm thinking the brass shell mouth would not feed well in the semi-auto, so I want to create a load with the round ball protruding and crimped in place. Anyone have a source for more info on this?

    I had some 9.3 x 74r brass that didn't fireform nearly enough on the first go. So I annealed them, loaded them up again with a compressed load of crushed walnut, and had at it. They formed great. I found a great "end plug" for fireforming loads like this, or for making blanks. Use green florists foam. ( Michaels, and other craft stores->cheap.) Leave about 3/8" space at the top of your load. Then just JAM them into a block of the foam. The foam compresses, plugs the end, and breaks off flush with the case mouth. Works bitchin'!!

    I am using an old single shot 410 for fire forming. The shells come out a hair too large to chamber in my AR-410. So I might have to order in a 444 Marlin full length sizing die to deal with that. It might be good to have that for everyday use in that semi-auto with brass shells anyway...

    Fun project!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    So, I had heard of people making 410 brass shell loads with a .395" round ball crimped into the end, and even seen pictures. That's what got me looking into the mechanics of creating such a round for myself. But upon delving deeper, I've found something worrisome.

    The shells that I've fire formed ended up with a mouth o.d. of .469". Saami cartridge dimensions shows .462", so that seems reasonable for the ancient 410 I used to fireform. Ok, then let's do some math. The case wall measures .015", and this provides for a case mouth i.d. of .439". That's a good long ways from our .395" roundball size!! .439" minus .395" equals .044". (Actually .047" to allow for boolit tension/grip.) That's a bunch!

    Now, I can size down a portion of the case mouth to get it to hold the .395 roundball. However, it's of course going to blow right back out to .439 upon firing, needing to be sized down .044" (.047") once again to reload. I don't think the brass will live very long with such drastic resizing going on. A .410" roundball isn't the answer, as even that would require resizing the brass an excessive .032".

    Thoughts?? I wonder how the people that crimped a roundball into the end of a 410 brass shell got away with it?? I don't want to use a sabot, and crimp against that...

    Vettepilot
    Last edited by Vettepilot; 07-07-2022 at 02:43 PM.
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

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