S&w 38+p bodyguard and wild published loads

[Evoken]

Morning gentlemen,
I just picked up this little snubby and hope to shoot it some tomorrow. I have hopes that this will get into the rotation for a small concealed when I need to be very discreet.

This will be my only dedicated 38 special, as all my other wheels are 357. I have some decent 38+p loads that I have no issues shooting from the magnums. They are all well published and documented loads cross checked with several sources. Most of them use hp-38 and titegroup. All cast, some 158gr and I have one I like in the 66 with the 358429.

So here is my question. Prepped and primed some brass this morning and started digging into the manuals. For reference I have and use the current hornady, Lyman, Sierra, and nosler books. Looking in the Sierra and Lyman books I'm seeing several loads listed for J's and a few cast with magnum powders. 296/h110, 2400, 4227. I know they are published and certainly should be safe since they made the book, but wow they seem pretty hot! I would have no issues running these in a magnum as I know it will handle the pressures, but out of a 38 special????

Am I being over cautious here, or is my concern well founded? I suspect these loads even if safe will be quite a handful out of this little pee shooter anyway. I just want to try all the tools I have to get the best round for this little guy before I put it into service.


Thanks,
Ken

[ohen cepel]

For me, I often reach my limit in a J frame with +p loads in it before I hit the max load data. I would do some on the lower end and see how you like them. Yes, another 100fps when starting at 800fps (just example numbers) would be nice in a pinch but I'm not sure it will make a huge difference. No difference at all if you miss the target due to lack of practice or have a horrible flinch and can't hit things due to the really hot loads.

[Evoken]

That is certainly what I am thinking as well, although it would be nice to develope a decent hot load.

One of my favorite loads for 38, out of a 357, that I keep loaded up and in stock is a 158 swc loaded with 4.8 cfe pistol. Super soft, amazingly accurate in both my 4" and my wife's little 2" snub 357. I keep them loaded in her nightstand gun as they are relatively quiet, accurate, and should not over penetrate. Almost dead soft lead and do leave some flakes, but I'm not worried about that in a SD situation.

[rintinglen]

Your CFE load is a standard velocity 38 Spl. with a pressure of less than 15,000 psi. Those rip snorters you refer to (which I don't see in my Lyman 50th edition) are certainly plus P, maybe +P+. Very likely, they are relics from the last century.

I would not use 4227, or H-110/296 in any 38 load. They need higher pressures to burn efficiently than a 38 can deliver. I have seen a stuck bullet resulting from a H-110 loading that failed to burn. There are a few 2400 loads that are potentially safe, but IME do not produce the accuracy of faster powder loads using Unique, Bullseye, WW-231, Titegroup, Power Pistol etc. (There are at least a score of handgun powders that will work in the 38 Spl., most of them better for the purpose than 2400.

[Evoken]

Your CFE load is a standard velocity 38 Spl. with a pressure of less than 15,000 psi. Those rip snorters you refer to (which I don't see in my Lyman 50th edition) are certainly plus P, maybe +P+. Very likely, they are relics from the last century.

I would not use 4227, or H-110/296 in any 38 load. They need higher pressures to burn efficiently than a 38 can deliver. I have seen a stuck bullet resulting from a H-110 loading that failed to burn. There are a few 2400 loads that are potentially safe, but IME do not produce the accuracy of faster powder loads using Unique, Bullseye, WW-231, Titegroup, Power Pistol etc. (There are at least a score of handgun powders that will work in the 38 Spl., most of them better for the purpose than 2400.

You are correct that the cfe load is a standard very light load. Hodgdon lists it at 960ish fps from a 7.7" barrel with 13900 psi. Very light load and very good accuracy from 2 of my 357 mags. Also, I would not stand in front of it.

I will have to look again in the lyman 50, but I'm certain I seen 2400 and blue dot loads in it, perhaps not 296/110. Those particular loads are in the sierra book for their 158 jhp.

I happen to agree with you that these loads seem pretty wild to me, even the blue dot, in a 38. I will most likely keep my magnum powder where it belongs. I've got probably 10-15 different non mag pistol powders that will run just fine if not very well.

My question is mostly just curiosity. I know just because they list it does not mean it is good, just safe.

[reddog81]

There is tons of load data out there for .38 Special. If you have more appropriate powders there is no good reason to use the wrong powers. I doubt any current load manuals list H110, 2400, blue dot or similar powders in .38 Special. Some decades old manuals might have some data and the bullets will exit the barrel but using those powders is not recommended anymore for a reason.

[Evoken]

There is tons of load data out there for .38 Special. If you have more appropriate powders there is no good reason to use the wrong powers. I doubt any current load manuals list H110, 2400, blue dot or similar powders in .38 Special. Some decades old manuals might have some data and the bullets will exit the barrel but using those powders is not recommended anymore for a reason.

The most recent sierra Manual lists all 3 for their 170 bullet. Lyman 50 has 2400 and blue dot loads.

I loaded up some hp- 38 and some power pistol loads to see how they do. I have some other loads that are ready to go to try as well.

I agree that there are many many better powders for 38. I may try out some bullseye and 700x also just because.

[Kosh75287]

Except for 2400, none of those propellants will ignite efficiently at .38 Spl. +P pressures. From a 2" barrel, velocities are likely to be lackluster. Almost any propellant with a burning rate faster than Bullseye and slower than Herco is likely to give more uniform and desirable results.
I have worked up a load for 2" and 3" .38 Spl. revolvers, using 160 gr. LSWCs or LRNFPs and Red Dot, that achieve 1000 f/s or slightly more. These loads are hot, hard on the guns, and I no longer share charge weights with anyone.
If you can find any, you'd probably achieve good results with Alliant Unique, though you should expect some serious muzzle flash. Alliant BE-86 may be less problematic in that respect. I've also had good results with Accurate #5 in .38 Spl. +P. If any of these are among your "non-magnum" propellants, they're where I would start.

[Winger Ed.]

It'll handle +P loads, but it's like driving your car at 120 mph.
Sure, it'll do it, but it'll last longer if you keep it under about 75.

I used various powders in my cast 158s for .38Spec.
but kept coming back to Unique, loaded to published data for around 900fps or a little less for practice/target loads.

Coming out of a 2" barrel, I guess-timated they were actually closer to 800fps.

[gc45]

standard pressures and wadcutters do it all in the 38 special...

[pettypace]

standard pressures and wadcutters do it all in the 38 special...

Yes! You might improve on a target wadcutter. But you could easily do worse.

[Evoken]

I agree with what you guys are saying with a caveat. For the record I will not be running any 296, 2400, 4227, or even blue dot through this one. I think you have helped me agree with what I had already thought.

This load development is not for a target load or a target pistol. This is to develope a good SD load for a 38 that is not a 357. I am in uncharted waters for myself, this is my first none 357 pistol.

This little fella will not be getting fed a steady diet of +p ammo, but I want to know what it is capable of. I do not expect to get great accuracy beyond 25yds, and most of my target shooting will be at 10yds. Strictly a carry gun and I do not expect it to be pleasant to shoot. Although how bad can it be? My wife's 357 snub is not terrible to shoot, but it also has a full size grip and ported barrel. I shoot quite a bit of 44 mag pretty hot and I generally think 357 is fairly easy to control.

This will be only my second micro pistol, the 1st being a sig 365. I like the sig for what it is, but hate carrying it. The finish on it is terrible. If I even think about carrying it the slide starts to rust. Not great for a gun that is going to be between me and my belt for 12 hours a day. Getting I to warmer weather I need a smaller gun that conceals easier, I hope this one fills that void.

[pettypace]

I agree with what you guys are saying with a caveat. For the record I will not be running any 296, 2400, 4227, or even blue dot through this one. I think you have helped me agree with what I had already thought.

This load development is not for a target load or a target pistol. This is to develope a good SD load for a 38 that is not a 357. I am in uncharted waters for myself, this is my first none 357 pistol.

This little fella will not be getting fed a steady diet of +p ammo, but I want to know what it is capable of. I do not expect to get great accuracy beyond 25yds, and most of my target shooting will be at 10yds. Strictly a carry gun and I do not expect it to be pleasant to shoot. Although how bad can it be? My wife's 357 snub is not terrible to shoot, but it also has a full size grip and ported barrel. I shoot quite a bit of 44 mag pretty hot and I generally think 357 is fairly easy to control.

The point is that a "target" wadcutter is a better self-defense load for a .38 snubby than a lot of other things you might load.

Why? First, because of its specific combination of bullet shape, weight, diameter, and velocity, the target wadcutter penetrates well into the FBI's 12" to 18" specification. Second, the perfectly flat nose of the wadcutter does more damage (per inch of penetration and square inch of cross-sectional area) than any other bullet nose shape. And third, the light recoil of the wadcutter load promotes faster and more accurate follow-up shots. The one disadvantage is that wadcutters will not slip easily into the cylinder and would be slow to reload under pressure.

Here's a more detailed account from a more authoritative source.


And here's some test data from 2" barrels into "real" gelatin, both bare and fully clothed.

[frkelly74]

When I got a 38 , a Charter Arms Chamelion , I was concerned because it was so light that I was actually afraid I might blow it up with my hand loads. So I started low with very light powder charges of Bullseye. I did manage to stick a few bullets until I gained confidence in the gun. Also I wanted to have loads that my 85 lb daughter could shoot because I wanted to give the gun to her one day. Eventually I got a load that would work and not be too scary. Also I branched our into some 700X which I liked . The 700x does seem to produce more of a fire ball from the 2" barrel but seems accurate enough. I am using 125 gr flat nose cast powder coated bullets. She can shoot them up a lot faster than I can make them.

[Evoken]

The point is that a "target" wadcutter is a better self-defense load for a .38 snubby than a lot of other things you might load.

Why? First, because of its specific combination of bullet shape, weight, diameter, and velocity, the target wadcutter penetrates well into the FBI's 12" to 18" specification. Second, the perfectly flat nose of the wadcutter does more damage (per inch of penetration and square inch of cross-sectional area) than any other bullet nose shape. And third, the light recoil of the wadcutter load promotes faster and more accurate follow-up shots. The one disadvantage is that wadcutters will not slip easily into the cylinder and would be slow to reload under pressure.

Here's a more detailed account from a more authoritative source.


And here's some test data from 2" barrels into "real" gelatin, both bare and fully clothed.

Good reads, thank you for posting them. Interesting data to say the least.

I currently only have swc, wfn, and round nose molds in 38. (Can't figure out the purple font so use your imagination here please) I just hate when I have to buy another mold, and guess I will have to for the good of humanity.

As far as reloading, I truly hope I will never have to pull a firearm in defense of myself or others and based on statistics one wheel should be more than sufficient.

[beezapilot]

Well, for what it is worth being a creature of habit... I use BullsEye and Red Dot/ Promo loads in short barrel revolvers, fast burning powders. My dad always maintained that powder only does you good if it burns behind the bullet, a big ol' fireball (to him) and the load was "overbore" and powder was burning outside the barrel - aside from being impressive in low light conditions, really didn't improve much of anything. I never did research to find if that was true or not. Always worked for me though. 2400 was for 6 inch and above. SO- if I'm wrong, please show me the numbers!

I've carried for years, put down dogs and deer hit by cars, never pulled on a person. Cast bullets always did that job pretty well.

He loved his .30 Carb Blackhawk, mil. surplus ammo would put on a fireworks show with that! He worked up loads over the years that were pretty impressive...sure wish I could find his notebook.

[jonp]

I don't think any current manuals list a blue dot load I have a few in a couple of old manuals and tried them. They worked but were dirty enough I didn't think it worth doing again. All were for heavier cast that I don't use much in the 38sp. While I usually stick to Red Dot or Unique in my 38sp JFrame I found a few pounds of Universal on the shelf hiding behind some Shooters World Cowboy and found it works very well with 148 gr WC. Good luck, very good luck with IMR Target. It's one of the cleanest powders I've ever tried and consistent. I've got a 4lb unopened jug of Bullseye but never tried it as it's not something I use for anything. Got it on sale several years ago.

Other than that in the J Frame the powder that seems to do the best is ETR7, the Tightgroup stuff those clowns sold a few years ago.

The 38sp seems to me to be one of those rounds that 20 types of powder will work in.

[DougGuy]

What's inside the old original Federal Hydra Shok +P loads and what kind of velocity would they generate out of a snubby?

There was an attempted gun store robbery where the store owner used an airweight loaded with Hydra Shok +P alternating with PMC Ultra Mag (the hollow tubular copper bullets) to defend himself and when they pulled the perp out from behind the counter, expended bullets were falling out of the back of the jacket he wore. Later, detectives came back to the store to ask the owner what he had the gun loaded with so they could get some.

There is no doubt the lethality of Hydra Shok +P fired out of a snubby I was just curious what powder and what kind of velocity one could expect out of the 2" barrel.

[Evoken]

Not to contradict you fellas, but I am certainly not crazy in my seeing these loads in new prints. Here is standard 38 special load data for their 158 and 170 J's. This is from the 6th edition Sierra, 1st printing date 2019. They list 296, 2400, imr 4227, n110, and A#9. All magnum powders I believe and really hot loads for standard pressure if you ask me.

The plus p section is a bit hotter yet.

[Evoken]

Attachment 300225Attachment 300226
Here is from lyman 50, 2020 printing.

A few 2400 loads, and every bullet/boolit I show has a blue dot load.

This is the data that spurred my curiosity. Certainly new/current data I think.