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Thread: Is this not normal for casting?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Wolfdog91's Avatar
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    Is this not normal for casting?

    So is loading to Custom CBTO's / COAL's not common for cast reloading or something? I'll get a pm on the FB or something and someone will ask about my load data and when tell them I don't use book COAL/ CBTO's ( really prefer cbto) 9/10 times they act like I'm crazy or something. I learned to reload from more the precision side of things , loading the best ammo you can for one rifle and it's individual characteristics ,instead of the just racking out blasting ammo so doing it like that has always just made sense to me so I do it with cast to but seems to be a strange concept. Why is that ?
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    I only use the COL as a maximum length number. A lot of my cast will not chamber to that length.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Don’t recognize the term CBTO, but that aside I think it’s because we scare the heck out of them to keep them from losing fingers. Our intentions are good, but it becomes a rigid rule to only use published data. I think the NRA reloading class even says to use the same brand primer as in the book.

    Of course for most pistol and nearly all 5.56 loading the COAL is dictated more by the magazine than the chamber, so book COAL will help ensure that things feed which is more important to most shooters than the last min of accuracy. Heck most shoot a decent shotgun pattern with a rifle at 50 yards, rested, with a 4x optic.

    Just my thoughts on the subject.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Wolfdog91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Don’t recognize the term CBTO, but that aside I think it’s because we scare the heck out of them to keep them from losing fingers. Our intentions are good, but it becomes a rigid rule to only use published data. I think the NRA reloading class even says to use the same brand primer as in the book.

    Of course for most pistol and nearly all 5.56 loading the COAL is dictated more by the magazine than the chamber, so book COAL will help ensure that things feed which is more important to most shooters than the last min of accuracy. Heck most shoot a decent shotgun pattern with a rifle at 50 yards, rested, with a 4x optic.

    Just my thoughts on the subject.


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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    CBTO = Cartridge Base To Ogive.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy SoonerEd's Avatar
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    With j words I use CBTO as COAL is not repeatable giving the variation in bullet tips even for premium bullets like bergers. In bolt hunting rifles I often exceed max COAL as long as they feed from the magazine. In my prairie dog guns i feed them one at a time and the cartridge often exceeds magazine length. In autos I load to at or below max COAL then test for feeding. My records and dies are set off the ogive as that is more accurate/repeatable when trying to replicate die set up at a latter date.

    For casting I'm still a nube. So, I'll refer to others what they do.

    I use one of the stoney point / hornady comparator gauges like you pictured.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Wolfdog 91: It seems to me that it would be preferable to match your ammo to your particular gun rather than mass producing standardized specification ammunition. But there are considerations: What if your FB buddies are shooting a gas operated semi-automatic, and are more concerned about reliability than accuracy? What if they're loading for more than one gun in that caliber? They may have different priorities than you do. Besides that, the load that works best in your gun might not be as good in their gun. Just load the way that works for you, and if they have a different way that's working for them, then everyone wins.

  8. #8
    Boolit Mold Dave Dill's Avatar
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    I’ve honestly never used either for my cast bullets because I’ve just roll crimped to the appropriate crimp groove (there is only one exception which is my Lyman 358156 which has two crimp grooves). But with my PRS bolt gun, I’ve found myself chasing lands as I’ve gotten better at reloading than chasing COAL or CBTO. HOWEVER, I’ve used both as general references and still do if that helps with copper coated rifle bullets.

    With cast bullets and especially with revolvers, I’ve fired several different calibers through the same revolver and even still with the right loads and bullets, have never found accuracy to be variable,
    I.e, 148 grain full-wadcutters shooting the same groups from 7-25 yards out of a 357 GP100 that equally fires 170 grain SWP HP’s behind max load of H110.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I'll crimp it in the groove (if any), set it to the maximum length for the magazine (AR's), seat it out just off of the lands, then adjust for best accuracy. The loading manuals are fine and dandy, but the chambers are NOT identical!
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfdog91 View Post


    Sent from my motorola one 5G UW using Tapatalk
    Thanks, and I’m indeed familiar with the application, and use it for my rifle loads other than 5.56 to run in an AR, just didn’t know the term.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy

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    I found the Sinclair Bullet Comparator years ago, It's basically a large hex nut, with each of the 6 flats drilled for a different caliber. GW

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    My starting point for seating depth, is done through the barrel. I take a wood dowel, close the bolt, and run the dowel to the bolt face and mark the dowel. Then remove bolt and drop a bullet into the chamber, be sure it goes into the freebore, hold in place and put the dowel back in, and mark. But that's a starting point, tuning a load comes from powder charge and seating depth changes.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Jack Stanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G W Wade View Post
    I found the Sinclair Bullet Comparator years ago, It's basically a large hex nut, with each of the 6 flats drilled for a different caliber. GW
    I use one like that mostly while working out a new load . Very handy .

    Jack
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Magazine length usually drives my COAL, though some bullet seating needs to be set by the bullet ogive, the 311407 in a 30-30 is an example. Many Marlin's have very short throats and some 'fat' nosed bullets need to be seated deeper than 'book' COAL. Single shots need only seating that shoots well or makes you happy. Whatever the length, the bullet should not jam into the lands so that it does not extract when the unfired cartridge is extracted, dumping powder and leaving a bullet stuck in bore/chamber. I have encountered some rifles that feed a cartridge from the magazine and not successfully eject an UNFIRED cartridge because the ejection port is too short, both Savage 99's and Marlin's MAY have this occur, probably others. Load for the individual rifle, 'book' COAL or COL will USUALLY work but may not be the best choice.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    I don't use any length measurement, seat to what fits and works. As seating depth changes pressure, work up the load for a proper seated bullet. Any published load is just a hint to me. Too many variables. I don't have any molds with crimp grooves.
    Whatever!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    I look at coal as a magazine or clearance issue.

    I generally seat to a good crimp location, assuming all else fits and is ok.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have used base to ogive specs, but only for one rifle. My Ruger 308 is more accurate than I am and I did a lot of "tweeks" to get every 1/64" reduction in groups. I used the Hornady gauges/tools to determine bullet to rifling and played with that for a few months (best groups turned out to be Hornady 155 A-max over IMR 4895 using book OAL. 7/8" @ 100). OAL for my handguns is determined by the plunk test and crimp groove location...

    Loading cast for my rifles I just used mold mfg. or Lyman manuals recommendations for plain old OAL (base to nose). I got some fairly accurate loads from my Ruger 308, M1 Garand, and 7.62x54 MN...
    Last edited by mdi; 05-11-2022 at 12:02 PM.
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  18. #18
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    I like the Hornady tool that uses a cartridge case and bullet to get the distance to the lands. I then measure the coal and adjust +- to get the distance off the lands for jacketed, or into the lands for cast.
    My high velocity cast rifle loads for the 30-06 xcb get best accuracy at .05" off the lands with the 30xcb bullet.

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub PrestoColumbus's Avatar
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    The arguments for CBTO over COAL are convincing to me as a new reloader. But I have noticed when loading on the edges I have to stick with the COAL in the manual.

    For example, 300 blackout: (for my rifle anyway)
    110gr hornady vmax are too short to load .02" off the lands, they'll just fall out of the case if i tried to load it long enough.
    220gr berry's spirepoints are easy enough to load .02" off the lands, but they won't fit in the magazine (although they chamber just fine if i load the round by hand)

    So I want to prefer CBTO if I can, but with these particular boolits I just gave up on CBTO and used COAL from the load manual.

    Anyway, I appreciate this thread. I'm still learning and haven't blown my face off yet.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master 44Blam's Avatar
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    For each new gun I take my intended boolit and set it in a case (seated/crimped) to the max col of the round in the magazine and close the action until it hits. Then you know if it goes, you are good. If not, you have a pretty good idea of how far to seat it back. I then pull the boolit, resize/bell/seat/crimp closer - until I get it about 0.005-0.01 from the lands or at the COL of my magazine. Then with an AR, you might have to tweak it so it cycles, etc...

    Anyway, after I get the right chambering, I save that "dummy" round for future reference.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check