Reloading EverythingLee PrecisionRotoMetals2Load Data
WidenersInline FabricationTitan ReloadingRepackbox
MidSouth Shooters Supply
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: Old Model Flattop 44…

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold Dave Dill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    Wrightwood, CA
    Posts
    11

    Old Model Flattop 44…

    I’ve had an Old Model Flattop 44 Mag with a serial # under 6000 for over ten years now, and it’s the big iron I cut my teeth on reloading and especially casting. Yes, it’s a Blackhawk. Yes, it’s in very good condition. But I sometimes loose sleep loading 44 Mag loads under H&G 503 bullets filled with copious amounts H110 and 2400 being it’s 66 years old.

    As these guns age, should we start backing off heavy loads? Is it time to run specials through this old model and purchase a newer/ new super Blackhawk, or will these Old Models take 21 grains of 2400 under 250!grain cast bullets for a century?
    Simul Justus et Peccator

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Capital Region NY
    Posts
    680
    I don't think anyone can legally or physically answer that for you since there are so many other factors to consider. Some revolvers crack their frame at the barrel for example. For one, l just don't enjoy that kind of punch. 11 gr of Herco and a 240 lead makes me go Oooff!. 4.0 Bullseye is more my speed...

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold Dave Dill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    Wrightwood, CA
    Posts
    11
    Hi Martin,

    The nature of my question wasn’t looking for an “answer” per se, as much as I was seeking general wisdom or rules of thumb regarding heavy duty, but vintage Rugers like mine and maybe some metallurgy knowledge. It’s in great shape and shoots excellent still, I just… wonder if backing off it is something done by those who know as they get near 3/4 a Century old.
    Simul Justus et Peccator

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Cecilia, Kentucky
    Posts
    6,715
    I personally don’t know of any reason it wouldn’t continue with a diet of full house loads. It may be old now, but it was still made the new way with new metals back then. The fact that it’s this old and still going strong is a testament to its metallurgical and design strengths. I think if it was going to give up in some way it would have done so already. If it were mine, I’d not slow down with it any.
    Last edited by Bazoo; 05-09-2022 at 06:43 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy Dom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    W. Montana
    Posts
    428
    I see absolutely no reason why your Blackhawk 44 isn't just as strong now as when made. Only way I could see a reduction in strength would be if it went thru a fire. My pre 64 Winchesters model 70's are as good as ever. Shoot with confidence. If you still are skeptical , contact Ruger.

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold Dave Dill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    Wrightwood, CA
    Posts
    11
    Awesome, thanks everyone.

    I don’t think I was skeptical as much as I’m just another victim of a “throw away” generation and time. Anything, let alone high pressure eating revolvers that are closing 70 years old and as good and strong as it was in 1956 doesn’t go with the spirit of this age. But I like it
    Simul Justus et Peccator

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    contender1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Lake Lure NC
    Posts
    2,412
    Well, I'm a serious Ruger fan,, and I'll try & shed a little more info here.

    If you have a "Blackhawk" & not the Super Blackhawk,, as you've stated,, then it's on the smaller main frame design of that era. After the Super Blackhawk came out,, with a larger frame,, it kinda set the stage for more serious shooting. Then, in 1963,,, Ruger transitioned all it's Blackhawks & super Blackhawks into the larger main frame. The Flattop OM was dropped.
    Some people believe that the FT frames are a bit less structurally solid than that of the later guns.

    Metallurgy is a bit of a confusing thing. Metal can hold together for a while,, then suddenly have problems. Your gun has been fine for decades,, and may still be just fine. But,, metal fatigue over time can SLOWLY degenerate the integrity to a breaking point. Think of how drag racers build an engine,, and run it for a race or two,, and then rebuild it or replace it completely. And we've all seen funny cars blow their engines. Yes,, it's not a true direct comparison,, as they build these engines JUST to run once or twice, while a firearm was built to withstand long term use.
    But,, ammo has changed,, as have loads. So,, it may be just fine,, or maybe a case of "maybe the next time I shoot it,, it'll blow up."

    As a collector,, the OM FT's are desirable,, and even as shooters.

    I tend to be a bit cautious when I look at the fine old guns. I prefer to feed a gun a diet it can easily withstand,, AND still have the gun outlive me.

    To be able to give you a detailed, knowledgeable, metallurgical answer,, I can't I can only say I PERSONALLY have backed off my .44 FT's hot loads long ago,, because I wanted the gun to outlast me,, AND my grandkids.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Soda Springs, Idaho
    Posts
    1,093
    I've taken many, many deer with 21.0 grs of 2400 in my old model 44 magnum but in later years I've also taken a bunch with 10.0 grs of Unique with that same Keith bullet & have found that all of them were just as dead as those shot with the hotter load, just not quite as far away.

    Dick

  9. #9
    Boolit Master smkummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    So. Indiana
    Posts
    1,861
    Quote Originally Posted by sixshot View Post
    I've taken many, many deer with 21.0 grs of 2400 in my old model 44 magnum but in later years I've also taken a bunch with 10.0 grs of Unique with that same Keith bullet & have found that all of them were just as dead as those shot with the hotter load, just not quite as far away.

    Dick
    Exactly. I am 61 and I don’t know how you do it shooting that plowhandle grip with that kind load. I am shooting that Kieth bullet at 950-1000 fps in my colt new frontier 44 special on steel targets and feel it would clean shoot through a deer.

  10. #10
    Moderator


    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Way up in the Cascades
    Posts
    8,073
    I'm leaning more toward the opinion that it's no less strong today than when it left the factory, but what's wrong with just backing off the top loads a bit to preserve it and provide yourself with a little peace of mind? Where does a .44 Mag. load begin to be a magnum load (?) and at what point does it become abusive? Something in the middle is still a potent round, fun to shoot, and the gun remains useful. Give the old girl a break.

    DG

  11. #11
    Boolit Master


    Nueces's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Texas Hill Country
    Posts
    2,239
    Point of order. The original flat top Blackhawk 44s were built on the large frame - I have three of them. Beefy revolvers, they are about the same age as the early Smith 44 Magnums, but, I think, hardier as are most single actions over same size swing out double actions. The Super Blackhawk was built on the same frame, but with a new design rear adjustable sight. I prefer the early XR3 grip frame to the longer Super frame.

    Elmer Keith has written that Ruger brought out the original 44 on the 357 frame, but blew it up in testing. Thus the big frame came into existence.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,299
    Dave Dill

    "will these Old Models take 21 grains of 2400 under 250!grain cast bullets for a century?"

    Yes, they will and probably longer than a century.

    Modern steels, of which your Ruger is made of, do not weaken or get tired with age. They weaken when loads are used that are at or exceed the "yield strength" of the steel given the design of the firearm.

    The SAAMI MAP for the 44 Magnum cartridge is 36,000 psi. Even 66 years ago when your Ruger FT was made it was designed and made of steels to contain that w/o that psi being at or exceeding the yield strength. I have pressure tested [M43 PBL w/Contender test barrel] 21 gr of Alliant 2400 under a 253 gr RCBS 44-250-KT bullet in Winchester cases. The measured psi runs 34,800. That is under the SAAMI MAP and is well under the yield strength of your Ruger FT. If you enjoy shooting that load continue to do so w/o losing any more sleep.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #13
    Vendor Sponsor

    DougGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    just above Raleigh North Carolina
    Posts
    7,394
    As mentioned the steel doesn't get old and weak, and will last and last and last with full house 44m loads. You won't hurt that one with published loads, and loaded within published and tested load data, neither will any of your descendants in generations to come.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    12,820
    There two kinds of revolvers, good ones and bad ones. If yours was a bad one, you would have known about it long before now.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    GOPHER SLAYER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Cherry Valley ,Ca.
    Posts
    2,673
    I had an original 44 Mag Flat top built on the same frame as the .357 but I never tried what you would call a hot load. Wish I still had it. I have seen the same size Flat Top 44mag in gun shops missing the top half of the cylinder.
    Last edited by GOPHER SLAYER; 05-10-2022 at 03:43 PM.
    A GUN THAT'S COCKED AND UNLOADED AIN'T GOOD FOR NUTHIN'........... ROOSTER COGBURN

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

    gwpercle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    9,251
    In a 66 year old flat top Blackhawk in 44 Magnum ... I would be more than happy , at my age , with 44 Special +P loads and standard 44 Special loads .
    Not because of the wear and tear on the blackhawk ...
    ...but because of the wear and tear on ME !!!

    My favorite Magnum is the 41 magnum with cast boolit loads and truth be told ...
    the 38 Special gets the most range time !
    Gary
    Certified Cajun
    Proud Member of The Basket of Deplorables
    " Let's Go Brandon !"

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Soda Springs, Idaho
    Posts
    1,093
    When I used the hotter load of 21.0 grs of 2400 I had a nice set of Herrett's stocks that fit my hand much better than the small factory stocks that come on the Ruger six guns. Also there are 2 different kinds of 2400, the older Hercules that is a tick slower than the newer Alliant 2400. I still have several lbs of the old Hercules 2400. Brian Pearce had an article a few years back where he tested the 2 powders side by side & there was a slight difference in burning rate with Alliant being a little faster burning.
    If you have seen a Ruger single action with a blown top strap, and we all have, then you've seen a gun that's been loaded beyond a proof load, most likely with a double charge of a fast burning powder, Unique comes to mind.
    Several years back a friend stopped by the house with what used to be a very nice Ruger 44 magnum that his neighbor was going to take to Africa as a second gun. The top strap was blown/bulged as they are designed to do & the top 3 chambers were blown, as they usually do.
    There were 3 different people involved in the blow up, the shooter, the owner & the guy that loaded the ammo! None wanted to take credit for the ruined gun & wanted me to explain what happened, yikes! I said.....double charge!! I didn't really know & still don't because there were a lot of excuses being floated around right then! I do know that the shooter was sitting at bench #1 at our shooting range & a piece of that cylinder went through the metal wall past bench #6!!!!!!!!!!!
    The gun was sent back to Ruger & the return letter stated " The gun had been fired with a load beyond the design limits of the gun" They did offer to replace it for a very reasonable amount, don't remember. The gun had been to a revolver smith & had a lot of custom work done to it, all ruined!



    Dick

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold Dave Dill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    Wrightwood, CA
    Posts
    11
    Wow... I would put on sack cloth and throw ashes over my head if that ever happened to my Flattop.... major OOOOF..

    Thanks again for everyone's wisdom. I do often shoot 44 Special "Skeeter Loads" in the Blackhawk with my casted H&G 503's, but I like setting up steel out at my spot between 200-400 yards too and play against my friends "Ruger Blackhawk vs AR 15s". That's when full house loads of H110 and 2400 come in "hot".

    And yes, it is an old Old Model Flattop 44 I "reconverted" it too a year or so ago. 4-clicks, load one skip one; it's the real deal. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	JPEG Blackhawk.jpg 
Views:	33 
Size:	48.6 KB 
ID:	300072
    Simul Justus et Peccator

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,910
    Forty years ago, I bought an early Super Blackhawk and picked up a M29 a couple years later. I settled on a SAECO 250 Keith design early on, in front of 15.0 gr Blue Dot - which became my standard load for both revolvers. Friend of mine bought the Ruger off me but I still have the Smith, and use the same load. I never ran it over a chronograph but it thumps my hand pretty good.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,071

    Old Model Flattop 44…

    Quote Originally Posted by sixshot View Post
    I've taken many, many deer with 21.0 grs of 2400 in my old model 44 magnum but in later years I've also taken a bunch with 10.0 grs of Unique with that same Keith bullet & have found that all of them were just as dead as those shot with the hotter load, just not quite as far away.

    Dick
    ^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^

    I dropped down to 18.5 2400 and found the deer dropped just as fast and I enjoyed shooting a lot more.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check